Advantage in the defending 22

[Guyseep]

Had this happen in a club game on the weekend and ended up in a debate after the game.

Red is on attack inside the Blue 22 when Red #13 knocks on. I play advantage and Blue # 9 picks up the ball runs a few meters to the side and back and then kicks it into touch a good distance away. Advantage over. If I had given the scrum, chances are Blue would have won the scrum, made a clearing kick and roughly been in touch at the same spot.


Later in the game Red is on attack inside the Blue 22, when at a ruck Blue counter rucks and is winning the ball. Red #3 comes in from the side to disrupt the counter ruck and I signal penalty advantage to Blue. Blue #4 picks and drives and gains a few meters, and then Blue does another pick and drive. Still advantage. Still in the 22. The Red defense is vary narrow and there is space out wide so Blue #9 passes out wide and a few more passes are made until the Blue #14 kicks from behind his 22 and into touch. I call advantage over. Red line out.

Here is the debate and eventhough as ref I am the sole judge of advantage, I would like some insight. I argued that the advantage was tactical and the Blue team was given the freedom to play the ball as they wished. They decided to pass it out wide and try to beat the Red backline. That was their tactical advantage.

The Blue coach argued that if the penalty was given and they kicked for touch they would have received the throw in at the line out instead of Red.

Thoughts?

 

[Drift]

How far down field was the PK advantage kicked? By the sounds of it they were under pressure always so why not just give them the PK?

 

[Guyseep]

The kick was quite a distance, pretty much on center. They weren't really under pressure. Once they won the ruck Blue had go forward. The counter ruck was maybe 7 meters from their line and the two pick and drives got them about 4 meters each. Not enough to call it a territorial advantage, but they still had possession and control of the ball, before trying to spin it out wide.

 

[crossref]

I am with the coach, they didn't get any advantage, back to the PK

This scenario is precisely the difference between a PK advantage and a scrum advantage

 

[Drift]

I probably would've given the PK, but I would've done it after a phase of pick and drive, that's just eating time up in the game IMO.

 

[Guyseep]

I am with the coach, they didn't get any advantage, back to the PK

This scenario is precisely the difference between a PK advantage and a scrum advantage

Doesn't it actually meet both criteria for advantage being gained? They gained a lot of territory, and they had the freedom to play the ball as they wish. One other thing to add is the penalty was quite close to the touchline so the angle for a kick would not have been great. A penalty kick from 7 meters from their try line and 5 meters in from touch might not have gotten them to center, although they would have had the throw in.

 

[crossref]

I am with the coach, they didn't get any advantage, back to the PK

This scenario is precisely the difference between a PK advantage and a scrum advantage

Doesn't it actually meet both criteria for advantage being gained? They gained a lot of territory, and they had the freedom to play the ball as they wish. One other thing to add is the penalty was quite close to the touchline so the angle for a kick would not have been great. A penalty kick from 7 meters from their try line and 5 meters in from touch might not have gotten them to center, although they would have had the throw in.

If you had called advantage over before they kicked it, fair enough. But you didn't
So the advantage they got was a kick
But a PK gives them the throw in

 

[FlipFlop]

My general rules of thumb:

Scrum advantage inside your own 22m - lets play it and see. If the next tackle/ruck is messy will blow up.
PK advantage inside your own 22m - Will award it.

Reasoning: Scrum - all they need is a ruck/tackle where they get secure ball, and can then reorganise, and it is as if there is a scrum, so play on. PK - unlikely to get advantage - most teams want the PK, as they can kick to touch and have the throw in.

 

[The Fat]

I probably would've given the PK, but I would've done it after a phase of pick and drive, that's just eating time up in the game IMO.

Agree with this. PK advantage in your own 22 usually involves at least some pressure from the oppo. Call this one early so they get to clear and get the throw in, and presumably possession down field. Don't have them scrambling to get out of their 22 (although I acknowledge that the OP suggested they were working away at moving the ball competently). Different story if they clear the ruck with a couple of passes and have created an overlap with good potential. See where that one goes before blowing.

 

[Simon Thomas]

Advantage is all about where appropriate letting it run and seeing what happens, making the judgement as to if or when tactical and/or territorial benefit is gained and calling it over or coming back. If no advantage possible, then

Plus making a diffentiation between scrum and PK advantages, and considering history of match, position on pitch, and stage of match.

Based on the descriptions you give and consaidering the context, I suspect a quicker PK would have been a better decision. Kick to touch and ball inside 22m still, line out ball won and cleared to halfway - same result, less pressure.

 

[OB..]

Doesn't it actually meet both criteria for advantage being gained? They gained a lot of territory, and they had the freedom to play the ball as they wish.

From a PK they would have gained both territory and (probably) possession. Did they get that or equivalent? I would say not.

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

The other consideration is how was the lineout going in the game?
If Red was poor and Blue winning most advantage over may be a fair call.
Also if Blue were stuffing Red in general and there was not long to go, again advantage over may be ok.
Lots of variables

 

[winchesterref]

I don't think I would have considered the lineout as part of my thought process in this. Penalty kick to touch gives the throw in which is a bigger benefit than a few extra yards and the lottery of the opposition throw. Agree about the last part in a friendly, but in a league game it could be a potential attacking/points scoring opportunity which may be crucial at the end of the year!

 

[OB..]

The other consideration is how was the lineout going in the game?

How often do you see a team that will probably lose the lineout?

In my experience it is rare, and the team will also be getting hammered elsewhere on the pitch. At least a lineout gives them a short rest.