Advantage over

[Toby Warren]

Did a uni gamed and got assessed / advised. Good discussion afterwards but one element that we agreed to disagree on.

Playing Pen advantage, adviser says if the fly half kicks the ball through choice and not under pressure then that is advantage over - regardless of the outcome of the kick. I agreed with this for SCRUM advantage but not so sure for PK advantage.

He insisted that this was as a result of a directive 5-6 years ago, I accepted his version but thought I would seek opinions here.

Do you think that advantage is over as a result of a bad kick?

 

[ianh5979]

i agree with you Lizban, i would be looking for at least a 25-30 yard gain in ground for advantage to be over with opposition under a bit of pressure

 

[jeff]

LIZBAN,
IF The kicker is under NO pressure, and has elected to kick then the advantage is over as he has made is own choice to kick and its is own fault if he messed it up.

 

[dave_clark]

for a penalty advantage? disagree. if it was a scrum advantage, probably.

 

[OB..]

I agree with Lizban. I suggest you ask for the directive and enquire further of others in your society. It sounds as if referees are going to get conflicting assessments.

 

[Dixie]

Advantage may be either tactical or territorial. Tactically, the kicker has fewer options from open play than from the PK (can't go stright to touch; or get the throw-in, for example) - so even an unpressured kick doesn't fo me count as a tactical improvement. So I'm looking for territory.

If he boots it straight down the FB's throat with acres to run forward into, or slices into touch, I'd bring it back for the PK - probably before the ball has landed.

 

[TheBFG]

Advantage may be either tactical or territorial. Tactically, the kicker has fewer options from open play than from the PK (can't go stright to touch; or get the throw-in, for example) - so even an unpressured kick doesn't fo me count as a tactical improvement. So I'm looking for territory.

If he boots it straight down the FB's throat with acres to run forward into, or slices into touch, I'd bring it back for the PK - probably before the ball has landed.

I know you have said before the ball has landed, but going for your "kicked it down the FB throat" would you still blow or wait for the potential knock on and the resulting scrum?

 

[Simon Thomas]

If under no pressure and he elects to kick and then cocks it up - advantage over, whether scrum or penalty advantage.

This is a standard interpretation that I would give to referees in a Training Meeting and is what I have heard at every RFU and Society course I have attended as either a referee or assessor.

The tactical advantage is that he has an unpressured kick option, not the result of that kick.

This is definitely what I would apply as Group, Federation or Society Assessor.

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

Disagree Simon Advantage has to be Tactical or Terratorial and the Referee is the sole judge of that not the Assessor!!!
What's the difference if he is under pressure and elects to pass or run, none whatsoever.

 

[dave_clark]

The tactical advantage is that he has an unpressured kick option, not the result of that kick.

penalty advantage under the posts, 5 metres out, team pass the ball back to the FH who takes an unpressured attempt at a drop goal but because it's a level 12 game he's an incompetent buffoon and misses by a mile.

advantage over?

 

[Simon Thomas]

Disagree Simon Advantage has to be Tactical or Terratorial and the Referee is the sole judge of that not the Assessor!!!
What's the difference if he is under pressure and elects to pass or run, none whatsoever.

By electing to kick (whilst under no pressure) he has taken his tactical advantage. I make no difference in the interpretation when I referee on Sundays (level 8/9 matches) or as an Assessor on Saturdays.

The referee makes his decision on the day, and the assessor either agreees or marks it as a non-compliance for discussion in de-brief and inclusion in the match report.

If he is under pressure he does not have all options available to him to make all tactical decisions.

 

[OB..]

We have been told that if the kick is not under pressure, then for scrum advantage, it is over, but for penalty advantage t you wait to see if the kick results in a gain.

The principle behind it is that you consider what the team would expect to gain from the scrum or penalty. In the former case, it is little more than decent possession, with no real expectation of a gain in ground. In the latter, possession from a lineout some distance downfield, or perhaps 3 points.

 

[ex-lucy]

interesting .. see the divide ?
ST and a L6+1 ref say one thing and the 'lower' lvl refs (like me) say o/wise ... interesting

 

[beckett50]

I have to admit that I sway towards OBs interpretation, and tend to do this in the game.

I would tend to let ball the land if it is kicked straight down the FBs throat, just in case he drops it

 

[dave_clark]

interesting .. see the divide ?
ST and a L6+1 ref say one thing and the 'lower' lvl refs (like me) say o/wise ... interesting

and the higher level refs (like the elite chaps) go with our interpretation.

maybe there's a level 2-6 conspiracy that they've not told us mere mortals (or gods) about :chin:

 

[Dickie E]

If under no pressure and he elects to kick and then cocks it up - advantage over, whether scrum or penalty advantage.

I disagree. Even at test level there are plenty of instances where a drop goal has been unsuccessfully attempted and the ref comes back for the PK.

 

[Jenko]

Disagree Simon Advantage has to be Tactical or Terratorial and the Referee is the sole judge of that not the Assessor!!!
What's the difference if he is under pressure and elects to pass or run, none whatsoever.

Unless the assessor is a Time Lord he cannot change the decision the ref has made. His discussion afterwards, however, can influence future decisions!

If the player is not under pressure then his decision to run or kick is a tactical one and could be seen as advantage over depending on the circumstance. there was an incident in one of the tri nations games when Aus ran and knocked on (when under no pressure) they had made the tactical decision and if their skills had been better then the advantage was theirs (ref rightly called advantage over and awarded scrum to opposition much to the annoyance of Mortlock...he should have been annoyed with O'Connor though who knocked on with the field open in front of him!)

 

[Dickie E]

Jenko, if I remember correctly that was scrum advantage, not penalty advantage

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

Jenko, if I remember correctly that was scrum advantage, not penalty advantage

It was a scrum - see post #27 below

http://www.rugbyrefs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7941&page=3&highlight=mortlock

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

Last Saturday I played an advantage for not 10m from about 20 metres out - play went a bit sideways to other corner and finally reach a knock on stoppage by team in possession. I went back across the field to the advantage for not 10m and signalled for a FK (which it was) - assessor told me that for a FK the advantage was too long - he had counted it (emoticon wearing anorak required):wow: at about 20 seconds. Bit of a telling off. He wouldn't have had a problem if it had been a PK he said.