ADVANTAGE WHEN TIME IS UP

[Ciaran Trainor]

If i'm reading this correct, Blue knock on and then hack forward 50m. Red gather ball and counter to score, great advantage and scope for allowing the game to develop.

You have until red pass the position of KO and make positive ground to make the decision, in broken field with red have good counter attacking back three a great demonstration of the beauty of playing advantage and finding reasons not to blow.

Did you call advantage?

Did it affect how blue responded? Od did they play to the whistle and your prompt?

Did you call advantage over?

you are reading it correct. Many Blues stood around expecting a whistle that didn't come. I did call advantage and advantage over after about 20M run by the fullback. tactical not territorial advantage

 

[didds]

Isn't that just a courtesy?

that maybe so - but then calling it sometimes and not at others just creates inconstancies that don't help the overall picture.

 

[crossref]

A ref absolutely has to communicate the moment that he/she is calling it as advantage over (advantage gained)
It's an important piece of information for the players
And will make you life a lot easier at the next decision

 

[RedCapRef]

There are times of course when the advantage being over and the next stoppage in play are so close together that there is no time to call advantage over. I would suggest that this is likely what happened in the OP.

 

[Decorily]

There are times of course when the advantage being over and the next stoppage in play are so close together that there is no time to call advantage over. I would suggest that this is likely what happened in the OP.

No

 

[SimonSmith]

Is one of your parameters the location on the field ? They way teams have played so far? The nature of the game? The score ?

Why not also the time on the clock

In order:
1. Yes, location matters. Advantage in the 22m is different to advantage in the red zone of your oppposition.
2. Not really.
3. Yes. If it's niggly, it gets closed down.

Why not the time on the clock? Because all the other ones I apply consistently throughout the game to both sides. By changing my standards as we get into 79th minutes and/or a team is within one score, I am not applying my standards consistently, nor to both sides.

 

[crossref]

I know we have had this discussion before , but for me there are very many factors and I see no reason why the clock wouldn't be one of them

Especially as at grassroots level it's a secret clock only you can see

Red knock on with 10s on the clock

In a stadium blue can make a choice: press on and try to gain an advantage inside the next 10s facing a risk game ending if they dont, or just stop playing and have a scrum

With our secret clock , if we decide to play advantage we are deciding that blue have a reasonable chance of getting am advantage inside the next 10s .. when blue aren't even aware how pressed for time they are.

 

[SimonSmith]

I know we have had this discussion before , but for me there are very many factors and I see no reason why the clock wouldn't be one of them

Especially as at grassroots level it's a secret clock only you can see

Red knock on with 10s on the clock

In a stadium blue can make a choice: press on and try to gain an advantage inside the next 10s facing a risk game ending if they dont, or just stop playing and have a scrum

With our secret clock , if we decide to play advantage we are deciding that blue have a reasonable chance of getting am advantage inside the next 10s .. when blue aren't even aware how pressed for time they are.

Defending team: right lads. Every knock on in this area is a two phase advanatge. No pens for the next two, and force an error.

5 phases later: WTAF?

 

[crossref]

Defending team: right lads. Every knock on in this area is a two phase advanatge. No pens for the next two, and force an error.

5 phases later: WTAF?

not quite sure I understand that.

but the scenario I don't think is fair is --
- knock on, adv blue
[a little time passes]

- peep no advantage, scrum blue
- peeeeeeeep End of game.

How come? Well, blue, while you were playing on and I was waiting to see if an advantage might come ... alas time expired.

No, no apologies mate, it's a policy of mine, pay no attention to the clock. you should have been able to guess that might happen.
Yes, I know you can't see my watch, don't care.

 

[BikingBud]

I know we have had this discussion before , but for me there are very many factors and I see no reason why the clock wouldn't be one of them

Especially as at grassroots level it's a secret clock only you can see

Red knock on with 10s on the clock

In a stadium blue can make a choice: press on and try to gain an advantage inside the next 10s facing a risk game ending if they dont, or just stop playing and have a scrum

With our secret clock , if we decide to play advantage we are deciding that blue have a reasonable chance of getting am advantage inside the next 10s .. when blue aren't even aware how pressed for time they are.

I would offer the decision is not time bound but that Blue will get an advantage before the next stop in play.

 

[crossref]

I would offer the decision is not time bound but that Blue will get an advantage before the next stop in play.

that's not what adv means.

disregarding time for a moment the decision process is
- blue is likely to be able to gain adv = play adv for now
- blue is NOT likely to be able to gain adv, or has commits offence = peep no adv, scrum
- blue HAS gained adv = Adv over, play on

when time is scarce there is the added complication that if they fail to gain adv inside the time available, then they won't even get the scrum

 

[BikingBud]

not quite sure I understand that.

but the scenario I don't think is fair is --
- knock on, adv blue
[a little time passes]

- peep no advantage, scrum blue
- peeeeeeeep End of game.

How come? Well, blue, while you were playing on and I was waiting to see if an advantage might come ... alas time expired.

No, no apologies mate, it's a policy of mine, pay no attention to the clock. you should have been able to guess that might happen.
Yes, I know you can't see my watch, don't care.

What is a little time passes? Time doesn't pass without action! If >10s, and a lot can happen in 10s, it is no side after the next stoppage. We cannot capture all those ponderables in simple posts on a forum.

If they drop the second pass then likely yes come back but would you blow as they were just mounting an attack down the blindside with a 3v1 and bring them back for a scrum on the basis there was only 10 s on the clock? As @Ciaran Trainor observed they then get pummelled in the scrum!

As a player I would much rather we had the full opportunity to go forward and were found to be short in skill or execution than come back and get hammered in the scrum and then find we are scramble defending our 22 as the red 8/9/10/11 attacked down our blindside, because the ref wanted to make sure the scrum was awarded within playing time.

Again advantage is viewed in many differing ways and does not equal blue scoring; if they made 40 metres and then fumbled or were tackled into touch, they have had a very real opportunity.

Or maybe the developing attack draws the red defenders into a penalty offence, see Yellow card for Samoa nine yesterday for a prime example of stupid offences defenders commit when under pressure.

Going back to the start point, would I accept that this was advantage over and time expired, even if the ref hadn't called it? It depends!

But the beauty of advantage is that is it not fixed, it is always a situation specific decision and it allows great empathy for the outcome of the game to be decided by the players.

 

[crossref]

@BikingBud you mention a LOT of different factors to consider when playing advantage and I think I agree with all of them.

my only real point is that time on the clock is one of the factors to be considered.

I gave an example scenario, but there are others where time is important - think of any scenario where (in a stadium) teams would be watchingthe clock carefully.

 

[BikingBud]

that's not what adv means.

disregarding time for a moment the decision process is
- blue is likely to be able to gain adv = play adv for now
- blue is NOT likely to be able to gain adv, or has commits offence = peep no adv, scrum
- blue HAS gained adv = Adv over, play on

when time is scarce there is the added complication that if they fail to gain adv inside the time available, then they won't even get the scrum

Who stops play?

Who judges if advantage has accrued?

My point being that why add the complication, use those 3 factors and work within those, the only one that appears to cause any issue is allowing play to run out but see my later post and below.

if we decide to play advantage we are deciding that blue have a reasonable chance of getting am advantage inside the next 10s .. when blue aren't even aware how pressed for time they are.

We are not bound by 10 seconds.

Theoretically, and I know how much you like these hypothetical scenarios, blue could continue for 10 mins and 50 phases but unless there is a stoppage the game doesn't end. At some point there will be an event that stops the clock, perhaps a try, perhaps a knock on, perhaps a penalty until that point play can continue but advantage might be judged as accrued after the second or third pass, does the failure of the ref to call advantage over neutralise all of that?

 

[crossref]

Yes, to most of that as well, @BikingBud see post #33

 

[BikingBud]

@BikingBud you mention a LOT of different factors to consider when playing advantage and I think I agree with all of them.

my only real point is that time on the clock is one of the factors to be considered.

I gave an example scenario, but there are others where time is important - think of any scenario where (in a stadium) teams would be watchingthe clock carefully.

I would offer shot clocks for kicks and the team in the lead seeking to retain possession to close out the game.

But from the other team's perspective when they need another try to get 2 bonus points, 4 tries and within 7 points, they just want to keep the game alive, the clock is a guide, the outcome depends upon their decisions, abilities and execution not the clock, and correctly so to my mind.

 

[crossref]

.

But from the other team's perspective when they need another try to get 2 bonus points, 4 tries and within 7 points, they just want to keep the game alive, the clock is a guide, the outcome depends upon their decisions, abilities and execution not the clock, and correctly so to my mind.

Yes, so if there is short time to go they might well decide to stop playing and take the scrum, rather than risk time running out, while hoping for an advantage they think unlikely to develop

 

[BikingBud]

Yes, so if there is short time to go they might well decide to stop playing and take the scrum, rather than risk time running out, while hoping for an advantage they think unlikely to develop

How do you see that happening?

Why is having a scrum advantageous?

And by the time the scrum has set the clock has certainly run out, the red defence that was struggling and scrambling can reset entirely and the red open side who was on a yellow card can return to the field of play and then smashes the blue 10 as soon as they get the ball.

Peep no side!

 

[crossref]

How do you see that happening?

Why is having a scrum advantageous?

And by the time the scrum has set the clock has certainly run out, the red defence that was struggling and scrambling can reset entirely and the red open side who was on a yellow card can return to the field of play and then smashes the blue 10 as soon as they get the ball.

Peep no side!

Gosh bud, this is hard work

If you think that time left on the clock is one of the factors a ref might consider when playing advantage, then you agree with me

If you think time left on the clock can NEVER be a factor to be considered, well then you agree with Simon

As so often you have posted loads and loads and yet I am still not totally sure which side of that argument you fall on

 

[Locke]

Something of a side note perhaps, but if I offered a scrum advantage to a team with only a few seconds left on the clock and time went into the red but advantage was not gained, I would still have the scrum set for ball to be put back in play.

I’m aware this is not strictly the letter of the law but would do it 100% of the time at grassroots level.