After historical law. ..

FlipFlop


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All (but most likely OB)

Am after the 2006/7 version of what us now 5.7e

Reason: 5.7e seems to say the ball is not dead at a Penalty, but the ruling 2-2007 makes it clear the ball is dead at a penalty. So want to see if 5.7e has changed since the ruling, and so might overrule the ruling.

Views?
 

Browner

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Surely 5.7(e) prevails.

Ie..No player changes until the ball is dead.

?
 

crossref


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the thing is, as we know - the meaning of the ball being 'dead' is ambiguous as the Laws use the one word 'dead' to describe what are quite different situations.

One definition of 'dead' is that neither team may play the ball until the referee gives some signal.
So after a knock on, if the referee blows his whistle the ball is dead.
But after a PK offence, if the referee blows his whistle then the the non-offending team are free to play the ball, so the ball isn't dead.

following that definition (which is not in the Laws) the ball is dead when the referee blows the whistle for scrum offences, tries, time and injury. Also when giving a card. It's not dead when in touch (if the quick throw is still on) nor at a PK. In those cases one team cannot play the ball, but the other team can. It's a zombie ball.
 

Browner

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Granted it does change in other area's. but the question was about 2\2007 & 5.7(e) and that's clear enough, complete the play, then interchange is permitted.
Ie no NFL style goal kicker comes on.

Least that's my interpretation.
 

OB..


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Am after the 2006/7 version of what us now 5.7e
[LAWS]If time expires and teh ball is not dead, or an awarded scrum or lineout has not been completed the referee allows play to continue until eth next time that the ball becomes dead. If time expires and a mark, free kick or penalty kick is then awarded, the referee allows play to continue.[/LAWS]

Current version for comparison[LAWS]If time expires and the ball is not dead, or an awarded scrum or lineout has not been completed, the referee allows play to continue until the next time that the ball becomes dead. The ball becomes dead when the referee would have awarded a scrum, lineout, an option to the non-infringing team, drop out or after a conversion or successful penalty kick at goal. If a scrum has to be reset, the scrum has not been completed. If time expires and a mark, free kick or penalty kick is then awarded, the referee allows play to continue.[/LAWS]
 

crossref


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my point is that the word 'dead', and the implications of the ball being 'dead' aren't consistent in the Laws.

2-2007 is a good case in point.

[LAWS]Request
1. A penalty kick is awarded to White team. Before the kick is taken, can White team make a substitution? (If so, we assume that the substitute can take the penalty kick.)

2. A penalty kick is awarded to White team. Before the kick is taken can a previously sin-binned White player return; given that the 10 minutes have fully elapsed? (If so, we assume that the returning player may take the penalty kick.)

Ruling in Law by the Designated Members of the Rugby Committee
A substitution can only be made when the ball is dead. A referee must not let a player rejoin the match until the ball is dead. The ball is dead when the ball is out of play. This happens when the ball has gone outside the playing area and remained there, or when the referee has blown the whistle to indicate a stoppage in play, or when a conversion kick has been taken.

In both cases outlined above, the ball is dead, and therefore the answer to each question is in the affirmative.[/LAWS]

The clarification asks about white making a replacement on a white PK and the answer was yes because the ball is 'dead'
If the question was about blue making a replacement when white is awarded a PK the likely answer would be 'no they can't as the ball isn't dead'

A further twist is that - in my book anyway
If I award white a PK and they decide to make a replacement I would allow it, and then alos allow blue replacements
If I award white a PK and they elect to kick for goal then the ball really is dead and I would then allow a blue replacement.


5.7(e) is about when match ends.

When the ball goes into touch after time expires then for the purposes of 5.7(e) it is dead, I blow for no side.
But when the ball goes into touch earlier in the game and a quick throw is one, it's certainly NOT dead, and I wouldn't allow - for instance - a replacement or YC player to return.
 

Browner

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Granted it does change in other area's. but the question was about 2\2007 & 5.7(e) and that's clear enough, complete the play, then interchange is permitted.
Ie no NFL style goal kicker comes on.

Least that's my interpretation.

Oh I see, 2\007 does permit NFL style kicker ...thks crossref, think I've got this now. ...but could oppo use the request to prevent a QTP?
 

FlipFlop


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My take on it all.

Ruling 2 - 2007 is still valid and you can make subs/ return yellow cards at a penalty. The ball is dead.
Law 5.7e is (for me) about when you blow time. Not about when the ball is dead (it clarifies you don't blow time at a free kick/ penalty etc)

A later law ruling says that a Ref should allow quick throws, rather than stop a game to allow subs etc, eve though ball is dead. So I think you can extend a similar process to PKS etc. All quick ones, but if not quick, allow all subs and returning Cards.

This qu comes about due to disagreement about if 5.7e over rules the 2-2007 ruling.

Sadly there is no guidance. And this thread shows the confusion!
 

Ian_Cook


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FWIW 1996 Law 5 (Time, Toss) makes no mention of any of this, however....

[LAWS]LAW 6. REFEREE AND TOUCH JUDGES
A. Referee
(3) The referee shall keep the time and the score, and he must in every match
apply fairly the Laws of the Game without any variation or omission, except
only when the Union has authorized the application of an experimental law
approved by the Council.

.....

(6)
The referee must carry a whistle and must blow it
(a)
to indicate the beginning of the match, half-time, resumption of play after
half-time, no-side, a score or a touch-down, and
(b)
to stop play because of infringement or otherwise as required by Laws.

Notes:
(viii)
The referee should whistle for halftime or no- side as soon as time has
expired if the ball be dead or if the ball be in play when the time has expired,
as soon as the ball next becomes dead.
If the ball becomes dead after time has expired[/LAWS]
 

Rushforth


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FWIW 1996 Law 5 (Time, Toss) makes no mention of any of this, however....

[LAWS]LAW 6. REFEREE AND TOUCH JUDGES
A. Referee
(3) The referee shall keep the time and the score, and he must in every match
apply fairly the Laws of the Game without any variation or omission, except
only when the Union has authorized the application of an experimental law
approved by the Council.

.....

(6)
The referee must carry a whistle and must blow it
(a)
to indicate the beginning of the match, half-time, resumption of play after
half-time, no-side, a score or a touch-down, and
(b)
to stop play because of infringement or otherwise as required by Laws.

Notes:
(viii)
The referee should whistle for halftime or no- side as soon as time has
expired if the ball be dead or if the ball be in play when the time has expired,
as soon as the ball next becomes dead.
If the ball becomes dead after time has expired[/LAWS]

Are you trying to say "... (b) as a result of a fair catch, free kick or penalty kick the referee shall allow play to proceed until the ball next becomes dead", Ian?
 

crossref


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FlipFlop:276832 said:
My take on it all.

Ruling 2 - 2007 is still valid and you can make subs/ return yellow cards at a penalty. The ball is dead.
Law 5.7e is (for me) about when you blow time. Not about when the ball is dead (it clarifies you don't blow time at a free kick/ penalty etc)

A later law ruling says that a Ref should allow quick throws, rather than stop a game to allow subs etc, eve though ball is dead. So I think you can extend a similar process to PKS etc. All quick ones, but if not quick, allow all subs and returning Cards.

This qu comes about due to disagreement about if 5.7e over rules the 2-2007 ruling.

Sadly there is no guidance. And this thread shows the confusion!

I don't agree, if I award a PK against blue I am not going to stop white from taking a quick tap in order to allow blue to make a replacement or bring on a sub
 

Ian_Cook


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Are you trying to say "... (b) as a result of a fair catch, free kick or penalty kick the referee shall allow play to proceed until the ball next becomes dead", Ian?

Not trying to say anything. Flip Flop wanted some historical Law relating to time, so I posted the oldest I have on hand, 1996.

This is the whole of Law 5 as it stood then.

[LAWS]LAW 5. TOSS, TIME
No-side is the end of a match.
(1)
Before a match begins the captains shall toss for the right to kick-off or the
choice of ends.
(2)
The duration of play in a match shall be such time not exceeding eighty
minutes as shall be directed by the Union or, in the absence of such direction,
as agreed upon by the teams or, if not agreed, as fixed by the referee. In
International matches two periods of forty minutes each shall be played.
Note:-
(i)
The term "not exceeding eighty minutes" excludes any extra time which
the Union may direct or authorize to be played in the case of a drawn match in
a knock-out competition.
(3)
Play shall be divided into two halves. At halftime the teams shall change
ends and there shall be an interval of not more than five minutes.
(4)
A period not exceeding one minute shall be allowed for treatment of an
injury to a player or for any other permitted delay. A longer period may be
allowed only if the additional time is required for the removal of an injured
player from the playing area.
Playing time lost as a result of any such permitted delay or of delay in
taking a kick at goal shall be made up in that half of the match in which the
delay occurred, subject to the power vested in the referee to declare no-side
before time has expired.
Note:-
(ii)
The referee must make up time lost through any delay in taking a kick at
goal. This applies whether or not the referee considers the delay to be "undue
delay" on the part of the kicker. Playing time lost should begin from 40
seconds after the player has indicated his intention to kick at goal.[/LAWS]

The 2001 rewrite tidied this up quite a bit, as there were things related to time that were not part of Law 5.
 

Rushforth


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Not trying to say anything. Flip Flop wanted some historical Law relating to time, so I posted the oldest I have on hand, 1996.

Yes, but you ended your law 6 quote with "If the ball becomes dead after time has expired" and subsection (b) of note (viii) of the 1996 laws (or as I like to call them, the Laws of the Game 1995/96) seems to be the most relevant to the original query, as opposed to "(a) as the result of a ty the referree shall allow the kick to be taken and then whistle for half-time or no-side; or if it be ..." which is followed by (b) as above.
 

Ian_Cook


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Yes, but you ended your law 6 quote with "If the ball becomes dead after time has expired" and subsection (b) of note (viii) of the 1996 laws (or as I like to call them, the Laws of the Game 1995/96) seems to be the most relevant to the original query, as opposed to "(a) as the result of a ty the referree shall allow the kick to be taken and then whistle for half-time or no-side; or if it be ..." which is followed by (b) as above.


What I quoted was a cut and paste from my 1996 Laws PDF. I've added nothing

Here is the WHOLE of Law 6 as it is. I have emphasised the bits I posted originally

[LAWS]LAW 6. REFEREE AND TOUCH JUDGES

A. Referee


(1)
There shall be a referee for every match. He shall be appointed by or under the authority of the Union or, in case no such authorised referee has been appointed, a referee may be mutually agreed upon between the teams or, failing such agreement, he shall be appointed by the home team.

(2)
If the referee is unable to officiate for the whole period of a match a replacement shall be appointed either in such manner as may be directed by the Union or, in the absence of such direction, by the referee or, if he is unable to do so, by the home team.

(3)
The referee shall keep the time and the score, and he must in every match apply fairly the Laws of the Game without any variation or omission, except only when the Union has authorised the application of an experimental law approved by the Council.

Notes:-

(i)
If the referee is in doubt as to the correct time he should consult either or both of the touch judges. Only if the information given by them is insufficient may he consult another person.

(ii)
Where the referee allows time for delays the time must be made up in the half of the match in which the delay occurs.

(iii)
The referee has power to declare no-side before time has expired if, in his opinion, the full time cannot for any reason be played or continuance of play would be dangerous.

(iv)
Where a player is injured, the referee should not allow more than one minute's delay unless a longer period is necessary to remove the player, or to give essential treatment on the playing area.

(v)
The referee should not allow time for injury if he has reason to believe that a player is feigning injury. In such circumstances he should order the player to be removed immediately from the playing area and then order play to be resumed forthwith.

(vi)
The referee should, when the ball is dead, allow time for a player to replace or repair a badly torn jersey or shorts. He must not allow time for a player to re-tie or repair a bootlace.

(4)
He must not give any instruction or advice to either team prior to the match. During the match he must not consult with anyone except only

(a)
Either or both touch judges on a point of fact relevant to their functions, or on matters relating to Law 26(3), or

(b)
in regard to time.

(5)
During a match, the referee is the sole judge of fact and of law. All his decisions are binding on the players. He cannot alter a decision except when given before he observes that a touch judge's flag is raised or before he has received a report related to Law 26(3) from a touch judge.

(6)
The referee must carry a whistle and must blow it

(a)
to indicate the beginning of the match, half-time, resumption of play after half-time, no-side, a score or a touch-down, and

(b)
to stop play because of infringement or otherwise as required by Laws.

Notes:-

(vii)
The referee has power to stop the match at any time by blowing his whistle but he must not do so except on the occasions indicated in Law 6A (6) which include the following:-

(a)
when he orders a scrummage

(b)
when the ball has gone into touch or touch- in-goal. or touched or crossed the dead-ball lines;

(c)
when the ball has been grounded in In-goal;

(d)
when the ball is unplayable

(e)
when he stops the ball for an offence under Law 26(3) prior to ordering off or cautioning the offender; and in such a case he must whistle a second time when he awards the penalty try or kick

(f)
when he awards a penalty kick or free kick;

(g)
when he allows a fair-catch;

(h)
when the ball or a player carrying it has touched him and one team has therefrom gained an advantage;

(i)
when a player is injured but only when the ball next becomes dead unless (j) below applies;

(j)
when continuation of play would be dangerous, including the collapse of a scrummage.

(viii)
The referee should whistle for halftime or no- side as soon as time has expired if the ball be dead or if the ball be in play when the time has expired, as soon as the ball next becomes dead.

If the ball becomes dead after time has expired


(a)
as the result of a try the referee shall allow the kick to be taken and then whistle for half-time or no-side, or if it be

(b)
as the result of a fair-catch, free kick or penalty kick the referee shall allow play to proceed until the ball next becomes dead.

If time expires before the ball is put into a scrummage or is thrown in from touch, the referee must whistle for half-time or no-side.


(7)
During a match no person other than the players, the referee and the touch judges may be within the playing enclosure or the playing area unless with the permission of the referee which shall be given only for a special and temporary purpose.

Play may continue during minor injuries with a medically trained person being permitted to come on to the playing area to attend the player or the player going to the touch line. Continuation of play during minor injuries is subject to the referee's permission and to his authority to stop play at any time.

At half time the referee shall allow the coach of each team on to the playing area to attend to their teams.

Notes:-

(ix)
If the referee decides to stop play in the terms of Section (7) but without an infringement having occurred or without the ball being dead, he should restart play with a scrummage and the ball shall be put in by the team last in possession or otherwise by the attacking team.

(x)
The referee should, when necessary, but not before he indicates his permission, allow baggage attendants, doctors or first-aid personnel other than as provided in Section (7) to enter the playing enclosure and playing area.

(8)

(a)
All players must respect the authority of the referee and they must not dispute his decisions. They must (except in the case of a kick-off) stop playing at once when the referee has blown his whistle.

(b)
A player must when so requested, whether before or during the match, allow the referee to inspect his dress.

(c)
A player must not leave the playing enclosure without the referee's permission. If player retires during a match because of injury or otherwise, he must not resume playing in that match until the referee has given him permission.

(d)
A player who has an open or bleeding wound must leave the playing area until such time as the bleeding is controlled and the wound is covered or dressed. Such a player may be replaced on a temporary basis but if unable to resume playing the replacement becomes permanent.

If the replacement player is sent off for foul play the player being treated may not return to the field.

If the temporary replacement is injured another replacement is permitted.

If the player being treated has been unable to return to the field and has been replaced he is not permitted subsequently to return to the field because he has been replaced in terms of Law 3(4)(b) .

If a suitable replacement is not available any action by a referee should be in accordance with Law 6A Note (iii).

Notes:-

(xi)
Apart from injury the referee should not allow a player to leave the playing enclosure except in special circumstances.

The referee should not permit a player to resume until the ball is dead.

(xii)
In the event of a front row forward being ordered off, the referee, in the interests of safety, will confer with the captain of his team to determine whether another player is suitably trained/experienced to take his position; if not the captain shall nominate one other forward to leave the playing area and the referee will permit a substitute front row forward to replace him. This may take place immediately or after another player has been tried in the position.

When there is no other front row forward available due to a sequence of players ordered off or injured or both, then the game will continue with non-contestable scrummages as defined in the Standard Set of Variations to the Laws of the Game at Under 19 Level, Law 20, Section 4(f).

(xiii)
The referee must not permit a team or individual players to leave the playing area in order to change jerseys.

(xiv)
If a player who has retired on account of injury or other reason resumes playing without the permission of the referee, the referee should impose penalties for misconduct if he considers that the offence was willful for the purpose of assisting his team or obstructing the opponents. If the offence was not willful interference and if the offending team gains an advantage the referee should order a scrummage at the place where the player resumed playing without permission, and the opposing team shall put in the ball.

Penalty:- Infringement by a player is subject to penalty as misconduct.

B. Touch Judges

(1)
There shall be two touch judges for every match. Unless touch judges have been appointed by or under the authority of the Union, it shall be the responsibility of each team to provide a touch judge.

(2)
A touch judge is under the control of the referee who may instruct him as to his duties and may over-rule any of his decisions. The referee may request that an unsatisfactory touch judge be replaced and he has power to order off and report to the Union a touch judge who in his opinion is guilty of misconduct.

(3)
Each touch judge shall carry a flag (or other suitable object) to signal his decisions. There shall be one touch judge on each side of the ground and he shall remain in touch except when judging a kick at goal.

(4)
He must hold up his flag when the ball or a player carrying it has gone into touch and must indicate the place of throw in and which team is entitled to do so. He must also signal to the referee when the ball or a player carrying it has gone into touch-in-goal.

(5)
The touch judge shall lower his flag when the ball has been thrown in except on the following occasions when he must keep it raised:-

(a)
when the player throwing in the ball puts any part of either foot in the field-of-play,

(b)
when the ball has not been thrown in by the team entitled to do so,

(c)
when, at a quick throw-in, the ball that went into touch is replaced by another or is touched by anyone other than the player throwing it in.

It is for the referee to decide whether or not the ball has been thrown in from the correct place.

(6)
In matches in which a national representative team is playing and in such domestic matches for which a Union gives express permission, and where referees recognised by the Union are appointed as touch judges, the touch judges shall report incidents of foul play and misconduct under Law 26 (3) to the referee for the match.

A touch judge shall signal such an incident to the referee by raising his flag to a horisontal position pointing directly across the field at a right angle to the touch line. The touch judge must remain in touch and continue to carry out his other functions until the next stoppage in play when the referee shall consult him regarding the incident. The referee may then take whatever action he deems appropriate and any consequent penalties shall be in accordance with Law 26(3) .

Notes:-

(xv)
After a touch judge has signaled an incident under Law 26(3) he may enter the field-of-play at the next stoppage to report to the referee.

(7)
When a kick at goal from a try or penalty kick is being taken both touch judges must assist the referee by signaling the result of the kick. One touch judge shall stand at or behind each of the goal posts and shall raise his flag if the ball goes over the crossbar.
[/LAWS]

I probably should have included the bit in red too, but missed it as it was on the next page in my PDF

I think you are finding the style of formatting difficult to follow, as I do sometimes. The 2001 clean up made things much easier to follow.
 
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Rushforth


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What I quoted was a cut and paste from my 1996 Laws PDF. I've added nothing

...

I probably should have included the bit in red too, but missed it as it was on the next page in my PDF

I think you are finding the style of formatting difficult to follow, as I do sometimes. The 2001 clean up made things much easier to follow.

I'm glad that you posted the details of both laws 5 and 6 (similar then yet oh so different now in detail), but I wasn't finding the formatting difficult to follow. Nor 17, including note (i). But it must be said I am not using a PDF.
 

The Fat


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We are taught not to allow subs at a PK as the ball is not dead
 

Jacko


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We are taught not to allow subs at a PK as the ball is not dead

Not ever? If someone knocks a player out and is sent off, resulting in the player being stretchered off, you're not going to allow the replacement on? I agree that if a quick tap is on you wouldn't, but I have no issue allowing if there is a kick at goal or some sort of stoppage.
 

The Fat


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Not ever? If someone knocks a player out and is sent off, resulting in the player being stretchered off, you're not going to allow the replacement on? I agree that if a quick tap is on you wouldn't, but I have no issue allowing if there is a kick at goal or some sort of stoppage.

Will allow if time off for injury but no subs if kick at goal and no water boys/carriers during a kick as well.
 

Browner

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Will allow if time off for injury but no subs if kick at goal and no water boys/carriers during a kick as well.

But that's directly at odds with 2\2007

[LAWS]. Request
1. A penalty kick is awarded to White team. Before the kick is taken, can White team make a substitution? (If so, we assume that the substitute can take the penalty kick.)

2. A penalty kick is awarded to White team. Before the kick is taken can a previously sin-binned White player return; given that the 10 minutes have fully elapsed? (If so, we assume that the returning player may take the penalty kick.)
Ruling in Law by the Designated Members of the Rugby Committee
A substitution can only be made when the ball is dead. A referee must not let a player rejoin the match until the ball is dead. The ball is dead when the ball is out of play. This happens when the ball has gone outside the playing area and remained there, or when the referee has blown the whistle to indicate a stoppage in play, or when a conversion kick has been taken.

In both cases outlined above, the ball is dead, and therefore the answer to each question is in the affirmative. [/LAWS]
 

The Fat


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But that's directly at odds with 2\2007

[LAWS]. Request
1. A penalty kick is awarded to White team. Before the kick is taken, can White team make a substitution? (If so, we assume that the substitute can take the penalty kick.)

2. A penalty kick is awarded to White team. Before the kick is taken can a previously sin-binned White player return; given that the 10 minutes have fully elapsed? (If so, we assume that the returning player may take the penalty kick.)
Ruling in Law by the Designated Members of the Rugby Committee
A substitution can only be made when the ball is dead. A referee must not let a player rejoin the match until the ball is dead. The ball is dead when the ball is out of play. This happens when the ball has gone outside the playing area and remained there, or when the referee has blown the whistle to indicate a stoppage in play, or when a conversion kick has been taken.

In both cases outlined above, the ball is dead, and therefore the answer to each question is in the affirmative. [/LAWS]

I must admit that I haven't previously read 2/2007 and was a bit surprised at the ruling as it goes against what we have been instructed to allow at PKs.

Consider the following.
Hypothetical: Morne Steyne has been a bit down on form and is on the bench for a test match on the high veldt against England with the 3 test series tied at one a piece. It is the 79th minute of the game and England lead 21 to 19. SA are awarded a PK 2 metres inside their own half and centre field. The SA captain indicates that he wants to kick at goal. The call then comes that SA want to make their last sub for the game and Morne Steyne runs on and grabs the ball and the kicking tee and walks to the mark.............
 
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