[Maul] Anyone see a foul here...?

[Donk93953]

The USA Rugby administration doesn’t think this foul play raises to the level of a serious offense....
Your thoughts?

 

[Phil E]

Unfortunately there is absolutely nothing you can tell from a single image. It's meaningless.

Would need a video to make any kind of subjective judgement.

 

[thepercy]

It's hard to tell anything from still photos, is there a video available? Just because someone suffers a catastrophic injury does not always mean there was serious foul play.

 

[Decorily]

I'm not even seeing the still image....

But it's fair to say that , as already stated, a still will tell us nothing about whether foul play was committed!

 

[didds]

and I can't work out what the image is supposed to be of... scrum? tackle? ruck?

It clearly shows an arm across a neck and in contact with the head, which is _possibly_ dangerous play.

but as others have pointed out a single still doesn't show any context... these guys could be coming up from a halted reset scrum, where there is no pressure and the arm has just got there as they disengage for example.

didds

 

[thepercy]

and I can't work out what the image is supposed to be of... scrum? tackle? ruck?

It clearly shows an arm across a neck and in contact with the head, which is _possibly_ dangerous play.

but as others have pointed out a single still doesn't show any context... these guys could be coming up from a halted reset scrum, where there is no pressure and the arm has just got there as they disengage for example.

didds

From numerous threads on the USAR FB regarding this photo, I believe it is a maul.

 

[SimonSmith]

It was a maul. Short version is, I think, that the pressure continued until the neck was broken.

USA R decided that there had not been an act of foul play. The Coach, Jack Clark, is waging a one man war over it.

 

[crossref]

Is there a video ?

 

[L'irlandais]

The family of Robert Paylor have released this footage, not sure it sheds much more light on the tragic incident.

A committee has determined the spinal cord injury Cal’s Robert Paylor endured May 6 2017 resulted from a sequence of actions that included a number of infringements and although rare, was avoidable. We don’t really have enough to go by, to decide if the opposition’s bind was reckless or not. Was the opposition player aware he was bound around the neck ?

 

[Donk93953]

It was a maul. Short version is, I think, that the pressure continued until the neck was broken.

USA R decided that there had not been an act of foul play. The Coach, Jack Clark, is waging a one man war over it.

Hardly a one man war...

Here is the short video.....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vP-_NBSeWw

What you are not acknowledging is USA Rugby turning a blind eye to the entire review process.
Heck, there was no review process.
They spoke to no one involved by their own admission.

 

[L'irlandais]

Independent World Rugby Certified Citing Commissioner determines play was reckless, but does not “rise to the level of a red card offense”. (4 October 2017)

The World Rugby certified review concludes, "Photographic evidence shows prior to the collapse there is less visible evidence of muscle strain (an indication of active attempt to pull down on the neck) than when both players are moving down as the maul collapses...In addition, given the constant position of the elbow in relation to the head, there appears to be no torquing motion applied to the neck."
Read more at https://www.usarugby.org

 

[Donk93953]

Independent World Rugby Certified Citing Commissioner determines play was reckless, but does not “rise to the level of a red card offense”. (4 October 2017)

The World Rugby certified review concludes, "Photographic evidence shows prior to the collapse there is less visible evidence of muscle strain (an indication of active attempt to pull down on the neck) than when both players are moving down as the maul collapses...In addition, given the constant position of the elbow in relation to the head, there appears to be no torquing motion applied to the neck."
Read more at https://www.usarugby.org

The USAR citing process of the Robert Paylor incident asked six questions of the Citing Commissioner. His following answers tell a story...
USA RUGBY CITING COMMISSIONER REVIEW FORM
Did you confer with Match Officials as to what they observed? NO
Did you obtain, seek or consider further information from any other source including:
(A) Players from Team of the alleged offending player? NO
(B) Players from non-offending Team including, if applicable, the victim
player? NO
(C) Medical? NO
(D) Other sources? NO
Please identify any other investigative actions undertaken? NONE
These are the USAR Citing Commissioner’s quoted answers from the USA Rugby Citing Commissioner Review Form.

 

[beckett50]

The USAR citing process of the Robert Paylor incident asked six questions of the Citing Commissioner. His following answers tell a story...
USA RUGBY CITING COMMISSIONER REVIEW FORM
Did you confer with Match Officials as to what they observed? NO
Did you obtain, seek or consider further information from any other source including:
(A) Players from Team of the alleged offending player? NO
(B) Players from non-offending Team including, if applicable, the victim
player? NO
(C) Medical? NO
(D) Other sources? NO
Please identify any other investigative actions undertaken? NONE
These are the USAR Citing Commissioner’s quoted answers from the USA Rugby Citing Commissioner Review Form.

WTF!:wtf:

 

[L'irlandais]

That Jack Clark Facebook post does not really make things any clearer. Is this a USAR form, or a WR form? How did he get hold of it? Was there anything other than that written on the form? He may be selectively choosing answers to suit his position. (Note, while USA Rugby received a request for citing review, this ruling was referred to World Rugby citing commissioner, who then ruled on this incident.)

The review included study of various camera angles and still photos. Arkansas State was already penalized for collapsing the maul (the referee played advantage and Cal scored a few seconds later). However, the question is whether Paylor was driven head-first into the ground with intent.

Just not convinced we have enough to go on. WR had «*various camera angles*» and more photos.

World Rugby citing commissioner reportedly determined that although the play was reckless, there was no intent to injure and there was no justification for a red card

Playing advantage when a maul has collapsed sounds dangerous.
[LAWS]Law 7.Advantage must not be applied and the referee must blow the whistle immediately when:
g. It would be dangerous to let play continue.[/LAWS]

 

[SimonSmith]

I'd stop using the WR Citing Commissioner as being some kind of gold standard. It isn't.
B grade - and only just B grade - referees with a law degree are doing that job. And they only get the gig via USA R routes.

Let me pick my words carefully and hope you all understand. I don't believe that this has been handled optimally and as a result the outcome may not be the right one.

USA R, who are normally quite a vocal organization, are quieter on this issue than perhaps they are on others.

 

[L'irlandais]

Thanks for that. I do understand it is too sensitive an issue for a public forum.

However, apart from thepercy’s #03 response, in answer to the OP’s question, what can we say? Based on the very limited view that photo provides not much. Yes it is foul play, and?
[LAWS]Law 9 covers foul play
9.20 Dangerous play in a ruck or maul.
* A player must not charge into a ruck or maul. Charging includes any contact made without binding onto another player in the ruck or maul.
* A player must not make contact with an opponent above the line of the shoulders.
* A player must not intentionally collapse a ruck or a maul[/LAWS]

[LAWS]Law 16 Maul
16.17 A maul ends unsuccessfully when:

b. The maul collapses (not as a result of foul play).[/LAWS]Given that the match referee played advantage, then it would appear he hadn’t seen any foul play.

 

[Dickie E]

very sad. Reminds me of:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YERQQAOyE70

 

[menace]

My thoughts go out to the player and his family. Tragic.

Without entering into the details of this case as I simply do not have enough information about what occured etc so there is no way to comment whos at fault (obviously the way the US litigous legal system works somebody is looking to hold someone responsible).
What it should hit home to all of us on the field however is that no matter how inocuous a neck hold looks - as it happens regularly the dymamics of a maul - if we see it then we have to manage it pronto that the neck is released.