appointments

[Colt]

I agreed to do a local U13 game early week. Sent a note to Society by way of confirmation and received a reply that they would like me to do a ladies 1st XV League fixture as I was available, instead.

Couple of e-mails, 5 'phone calls and it is now 20.54 on Friday, still no confirmation from home team Captain, although my appointments manager assures me the game will happen. I have to advise the U13 Coach that I have been switched, getting a bit bored with no confirmation of the ladies game.

Do I hang on, ignore the ladies game, tell the U 13's I am re-allocated and keep fingers crossed for a game on Sunday.

My feeling is to confirm the U13 game, they booked and confirmed a week ago, and if, and when the ladies confirm, tell them it is too late.

thoughts

 

[OB..]

Surely it is up to your Society, not you? Talk to the Appointments Secretary.

 

[ballsie]

If I aint had a confirmation call by thursday night I am looking else where
take the game you have confirmed, its you day and your time, otherwise you will be out doing the tescos bit when you should be out on the rugby pitch

 

[Deeps]

As U13s usually kick off in the morning and Ladies in the afternoon, you might be able to do both?

 

[Dixie]

I view confirmation as key. I'd take the U.13.

Was the U.13 game a private arrangement, notified to the Society out of courtesy or to try to get better insurance cover? If so, you have a conflict of ethics. Your Society expects to be told when you are available, yet you have a prior engagement, and it's a bit harsh of them to ride roughshod over it. I'd go with the U.13's. They have a right to expect your attendance - the strength of which none of the other parties with a claim on your time can really match.

 

[Deeps]

In Hampshire the unwritten rule is that clubs may not approach Society referees directly, even if they are members of that particular club.

The point being that if you are available to referee on a Sunday then it is better that the Society appointer provides you with an appropriate game for you and provides the two teams with an appropriate referee in accordance with the priority for filling appointments. You now have a higher level commitment than to your club, certainly if you wish the appointers to take more than a passing interest in providing you with suitable games. A neighbouring club would have good cause to complain if they discovered that the club down the road was using a Society referee for a Junior rugby game when their higher level Colts or Seniors game was in need of an appropriate referee, particularly if the referee in question dares to wear a Society shirt when doing so!

As a former Colts manager of a team that played anywhere between levels 9 and 7 on the day, there is nothing more infuriating to find a club referee turning up because all the Society referees were busy elsewhere. When you are asked before the game to outline the differences between U14 and U19 you know that the referee is going to be out of his depth.

Hampshire clubs signed up to junior leagues 4 seasons ago and committed their clubs to providing club referees at each age group to perform within their club 'cluster' on league weekends. Predictably, the word did not reach all age groups or all parents and from time to time a club referee finds this a commitment too far. Panic then ensues, for a club defaulting on any referee commitment automatically loses 3 league points at that age group. The phone gets red hot on these occasions.

If clubs agreed to the league system, in spite of the Society explaining that there are insufficient referees available on a Sunday to guarantee coverage of any junior games below U19, then they have committed to finding club referees from members other than Society referees whom also belong to that club. The inference is clear, more parents need to train as referees in order to support the clubs' efforts to provide rugby for their sons and daughters on Sundays.

 

[Greg Collins]

we, in Sussex, don't expect clubs to "do" confirmation calls for community level referees. All communications is through Appt. Sec. Schools sometimes do it as a courtesy for mid-weeks but this is probably only 1/3rd of the time. Third season and I've only had one call from a club and that was 3 hours before kick off to tell me the venue had changed......

Further up the pole it happens regularly but in the weeds? No. So I say go where your Appt. Sec. tells you to go and if a club complain refer them to him.

 

[Simon Thomas]

Do what your Appointment / Re-Appointment Secretary says. as becoming a Society Referee gives you certain responsibilities, which refelect your Society's 'service agreement' with the CB (County and Clubs). In Hampshire we have an agreed proirity of matches appointed (agreed by County RFU, Clubs and Society) that reflect both the RFU and CB's policies and strategies for both playing expansion & player retention. Most Societies' funds rely on match fees, so if you do a match direct they lose that fee.

By all means get agreement in advance that you will do a club's Sunday morning matches as a club referee - a number of our members have done that.

Or do both matches - I have done U16 am and Womens League pm (National Championship 2 - level 9) and I am over 50 ! So an U13 should be no hassle for you.

But messing around direct with Club U13 team managers will only lead to your disadvantage and upsetting your Society's appointers. Ofetn they have no idea of the wider picture outside their agre group, let alone outside the club !

It is actually a written CB rule to not approach Society Refs direct, along with a few others that have not been enforced in the last few years.

For example - each Club must have at least one paid up active Society Referee to get refs appointed below 1st XV level, all fixtures must be notified in writing at least 7 days beforehand, separate shower and changing facilities should be provided (and must be for Young or Female Offcials), and lots of others too.

As Martyn says some (not all) clubs need to look internally and start to develop more of their own match officials (and follow brilliant job done by Ealing RFC with an in-club Society). I am staggered at the 'me me me' approach of some coaches & parents of U16 and below aged teams, total lack of knowledge that Society Refs are qualified & trained and are likely to have done a League match on Saturday too, that the ref may actually have played at a reasonable level when they were younger, and I have had parents who have actually told me that little Johnny at 15 yrs old is in the County U16 Squad and so knows more about the game than I do as he has proper coaches !.

Some parents have other incorrect assumptions - over-rate the quality of their son's team & their kid's skills, think we are 'paid' referees, don't know the Laws, don't understand rugby's ethos, etc.

 

[OB..]

In Gloucestershire, we expect confirmation calls, usually on the Thursday. The Appts Sec is busy enough without having to handle those as well.

 

[Dixie]

In Hampshire the unwritten rule is that clubs may not approach Society referees directly, even if they are members of that particular club.

Deeps, I've lots of sympathy with this view. But I think there is a case for keeping different rugby activities separate.

As a coach of my son's U.14 side, I often ref them in my capacity as coach. Quite simply, I'm not available to the Society before 12:30 on a Sunday, because I'm doing something else. Occasionally (as tomorrow - Bucks v Wilts U.16) I'll take a Society appointment where there is need, even though it interferes with my club commitment. Hiwever, in general I take the view that my club commitment predates my Society involvement - and the Society has first call on my time on Saturdays only.

 

[Simon Thomas]

In Hampshire - no direct call to the referee (and we don't accept voice mails, emails, etc) and a verbal confirmation, then likely to be a no-show by ref and if not called by Thursday 21:00 (unless late re-appt) then the referee is likely to be re-apointed elsewhere.

Or ref turns up and opposition doesn't travel, or home team had cancelled but not told ref - £30 fine, and refs petrol expenses payable. Last weekend level 6 2nd XV cried off, told everyone in their own club, but forgot to tell home club and ref. Home club are charging them for wasted food, and we are charging £30 late canx fee plus refs travel (120 miles return), ref coach travel (100 miles return) and assessor (80 miles return) - all at 40p per mile ! Ouch. Plus I have a pretty p*ssed off level 7 ref whose re-grading assessment match this was.

They learn pretty quickly !

 

[Padster]

I believe you should go with the society appointment first, every time. Your appointments manager has confirmed it is going ahead. I would try to chase up a club myself as I don't want to waste my time. If the team fail to confirm and you attend and there is no game this has to be dealt with by the society.
With my own regional manager the lines of communication and negotiation are always open though so it is rare for a potential conflict not to be resolved amicably.

 

[Deeps]

Deeps, I've lots of sympathy with this view. But I think there is a case for keeping different rugby activities separate.

As a coach of my son's U.14 side, I often ref them in my capacity as coach. Quite simply, I'm not available to the Society before 12:30 on a Sunday, because I'm doing something else. Occasionally (as tomorrow - Bucks v Wilts U.16) I'll take a Society appointment where there is need, even though it interferes with my club commitment. Hiwever, in general I take the view that my club commitment predates my Society involvement - and the Society has first call on my time on Saturdays only.

But you do this correctly Dixie and I have no problem with that, you have declared that you are not available to the Society until the afternoon. When I managed my Colts' side these last two seasons I did a similar thing, asking for pick up games when I knew my lads were not playing. That's quite clear as we have established our availability.

Other referees may suffer a crisis of conscience as to which organisation to support when they join a Society, particularly when a last minute crisis occurs such as when a junior manager has been let down. When I first started managing, this was one reason I became a referee, to provide the back up, the other being to ensure that my own children were adequately refereed.

I think Simon Thomas has made it clear where one's priorities, once declared available, apply. The re appointer will become very upset with you if he thinks you are within his pool of available referees to find that you have agreed to do a junior club game when he has you lined up for something more appropriate.

 

[peperami]

I agreed to do a local U13 game early week. Sent a note to Society by way of confirmation and received a reply that they would like me to do a ladies 1st XV League fixture as I was available, instead.

Couple of e-mails, 5 'phone calls and it is now 20.54 on Friday, still no confirmation from home team Captain, although my appointments manager assures me the game will happen. I have to advise the U13 Coach that I have been switched, getting a bit bored with no confirmation of the ladies game.

Do I hang on, ignore the ladies game, tell the U 13's I am re-allocated and keep fingers crossed for a game on Sunday.

My feeling is to confirm the U13 game, they booked and confirmed a week ago, and if, and when the ladies confirm, tell them it is too late.

thoughts

Typically the ladies will often not confirm until Sunday.

In your shoes I would do both.

I only ever offer my services on a sunday to a club if I do not have a conflicting society appointment.

I also am unusual in that I am not a member of any club, so I take the view I am a society referee at all times, so will wear the sponsored kit and be completely neutral.

Ben

 

[Colt]

Thanks for the feedback guys, haven't run the stats but it seems about 50/50 split.

Just to close this thread;

I had a Uni game on the Wednesday, a Senior game on Saturday, and geographically I could not have travelled between the 2 venues, even on my motorbike, in the rain, so doubiling up was not an option in this case, although I would (have done so in the past) if possible.

IN the end my last call to my appointments was about 21.30 on Friday, appointements were pretty confident the Senior game was going to happen. 22.00 I made a decision and text to U13 game confirmation.
22.15 get a call from LAdies saying game on. NO apology for time of day, I say it is too late already scheduled. Pretty ambivilant, not a problem sir we'll get someone else.

10.00 Saturday call from appointments clarifying that I was not going to the ladies, not overly happy. I try to explain that it was a league must have been in the books for a month or so, told all ladies games get appointed late, WHY, if this is custom and practise, I suggest it needs to be sorted.

Did the U13 game in the p*****g rain, by 14.30 no rain!!

All I can say is that the appointments team seem to have some pretty powerful allies to sort out the weather in that fashion.

A few observations;

I really do not understand why ladies game get appointed so late, and I still do not understand. What has Sunday got to do with anything, it seems this allows them more leeway for no reason.

I do a number of Youth/ Colts games, all on Sundays, and I get notification of them days if not weeks ahead.

I understand ST's observation re commitment etc, but I figured that I had met this requirement this week, Society do not own us, and we should be allowed a bit of free reign to help out occassionally.

This is the first time this has ever happened, and I have reffed the ladies on a Sunday on more than one occassion, and will be happy to do so again, just call me earlier!!

 

[OB..]

Colt - you do not have an open-ended commitment to make yourself available to your society, but if you have done so, then they are entitled to expect you to honour that, rather than make a private arrangement.

Maybe there was some confusion here, but after your society had in effect confirmed your official appointment, I think it a little cavalier of you to decide against it.

 

[Colt]

OB, you may well be correct.

My underlying concern is the accepted practise, or so it would seem, that ladies games are "allways appointed late" and that was my angst.

I was even told that some ladies games are still being appointed on Saturday, this is quite unacceptable in my view and shows a distinct lack of organisation.

WHY? I officiate the entire spectrum, including sorting refs for our annual tournament at minis, nobody has ever confirmed so late in *** years of reffing.

If everybody else can sort themselves out why not the ladies. I do not recall, ever, having such a late call for an appointment, and I have yet to be convinced that the girls warrant some kind of dispensation

 

[OB..]

Colt - yes, you have a good point. I suggest you pursue it (diplomatically!).

I have no idea if it is the same here - I shall enquire.

 

[Deeps]

Typically the ladies will often not confirm until Sunday.

I take the view I am a society referee at all times, so will wear the sponsored kit and be completely neutral.

Ben, when you put on the shirt you are of course representing your Society but without the Society's advantage of the £5M 3rd party insurance cover. However I wonder whether it is appropriate to wear the shirt if your Society has not appointed you?

 

[Simon Griffiths]

I believe the ladies matches are appointed at the start of the month along with all the other matches around here, are they not OB?

I certainly don't remember, from my limited experience of refereeing women's rugby, any late calls. I think I was called by Wednesday both times.

I don't particularly like refereeing women's rugby though*, so am thankful I've managed to avoid it fairly well. *I thoroughly enjoy refereeing uni/college women though...