[Ruck] Are no 1's actions now illegal with new ruck definition?

[crossref]

Y'all are missing a critical point. The law is intended to apply to arriving players, not the tackled player. If a tackled player releases the ball, gets up and picks up the ball before contact is made with an arriving opponent then no ruck has formed.

The law may be poorly worded but it's not incomprehensible.

Well no, the whole point of the new law is that one arriving player constitutes a ruck

 

[ChrisR]

Yes, I get that. The question in the OP asks if the tackled player, having released the ball and gained their feet over the ball, now constitutes a ruck and as such are prohibited from picking up the ball. I say no because the law is intended to address arriving players, not the tackled player.

There is still the question of timing. Should the tackled player have to pick up the ball immediately? Do they give up that right if they don't?

 

[OB..]

Well no, the whole point of the new law is that one arriving player constitutes a ruck

The way it was explained to us (panel ref, panel AR) was that the the first player to arrive only creates a ruck in so far as it produces an offside line. You need an opponent in contact for the full ruck law to apply.

 

[Phil E]

The way it was explained to us (panel ref, panel AR) was that the the first player to arrive only creates a ruck in so far as it produces an offside line. You need an opponent in contact for the full ruck law to apply.

The way it was explained to us by our resident Premiership Referee is that its "a tackle with offside lines, don't shout ruck".

 

[didds]

so - no ruck, pick it up, score.

Simples.

didds

 

[Rich_NL]

Yes, I get that. The question in the OP asks if the tackled player, having released the ball and gained their feet over the ball, now constitutes a ruck and as such are prohibited from picking up the ball.

No; in OP's example, #1 is tackled and gets up, but #8 is standing over her forming the ruck (under new laws).

I don't think anyone's arguing that you can't place and pick up the ball once tackled.

 

[crossref]

The way it was explained to us (panel ref, panel AR) was that the the first player to arrive only creates a ruck in so far as it produces an offside line. You need an opponent in contact for the full ruck law to apply.

Yes, That would make for a much better game.
Why on earth doesn't the new Law say that, if that's what they mean.

Has this new law ever been trialled before anywhere ?

 

[didds]

In the wildest imaginations of the 12 year old's mind...

didds

 

[ChuckieB]

If you look at why they are doing it, i.e. to wipe out the possibility of the Italian tactic proliferating in the game, I find it is quite easy to adopt the interpretation that it initially creates an offside line and subsequent application of existing ruck law can then be applied when and if an opponent makes contact.

Shouldn't be looking at a literal interpretation of the law and ignoring the reasoning. That's where being more broadly informed gives you the edge over those who have a much narrower view of the laws of the game.

 

[crossref]

Shouldn't be looking at a literal interpretation of the law and ignoring the reasoning. That's where being more broadly informed gives you the edge over those who have a much narrower view of the laws of the game.

Or, even better, they could actually write in the Laws that first person to arrive creates offside line, oppo arrives to create ruck. Then the Laws would say what they mean, and we wouldn't need to 'interpret' them to mean something different from what they say.

Here's the Law and RFU guidance written on 27th July - my emphasis

[LAWS]Law 16: Amended Ruck Law
A ruck commences when at least one player is on their feet and over the ball which is on the ground (tackled player, tackler). At this point the offside line is created. A player on their feet may use their hands to pick up the ball as long as this is immediate. As soon as an opposition player arrives no hands can be used.
Guidance Notes:
The “one man” ruck only applies after a tackle and that normal ruck law applies to all other situations e.g. player voluntarily going to ground, ball on ground in open play etc. The offside line is formed when a player from either team arrive over the ball.[/LAWS]

This is NOT the same as being reported today -- Evidently the RFU themselves weren't intially able to interpret the new Law correctly!

T

 

[Ian_Cook]

Or, even better, they could actually write in the Laws that first person to arrive creates offside line, oppo arrives to create ruck. Then the Laws would say what they mean, and we wouldn't need to 'interpret' them to mean something different from what they say.

Here's the Law and RFU guidance written on 27th July - my emphasis

[LAWS]Law 16: Amended Ruck Law
A ruck commences when at least one player is on their feet and over the ball which is on the ground (tackled player, tackler). At this point the offside line is created. A player on their feet may use their hands to pick up the ball as long as this is immediate. As soon as an opposition player arrives no hands can be used.
Guidance Notes:
The “one man” ruck only applies after a tackle and that normal ruck law applies to all other situations e.g. player voluntarily going to ground, ball on ground in open play etc. The offside line is formed when a player from either team arrive over the ball.[/LAWS]

This is NOT the same as being reported today -- Evidently the RFU themselves weren't intially able to interpret the new Law correctly!

So, what IS being reported today? Did you forget to post that or are you talking about what Phil E and OB.. posted?

 

[crossref]

I am talking about what OB and Phil posted which seemed well sourced and eminently practical

 

[ChuckieB]

I would not say that the NZ player could ever have been described as being over the ball. In any event she was always moving while the ball was released and it then became available. I would not say it was clear and obvious that this unusual situation could have been called a ruck under the new laws. At the same time, it can hardly be deemed as being considered relevant to the situation that the law change intended to address. I don't even think it would fall into the category of unintended consequences.

Happy to to let it play out under such circumstances until advised otherwise.

 

[Pinky]

I am talking about what OB and Phil posted which seemed well sourced and eminently practical

I think what Phil and OB posted was a reasonable personal take (by the folk explaining it to them) on what is described in the RFU guidance. This was pretty much the same steer we got in Scotland, ie only at a tackle, arriving player set offside lines and contrary to what is said, hands can stay on if they were on before the second player arrives.

 

[SimonSmith]

That's the phraseology that I've been using as it seems to be an accurate summation. Pity WR don't have a competent technical writer on staff

 

[ChrisR]

So, tackled player sets the ball back. Teammate arrives and stops over the ball then picks up the ball and goes forward. Has a mono-ruck formed? Have off-side lines been established?

If the arriving player scoops up the ball and doesn't stop then we have a tackle but no ruck. But what if he momentarily stops? How quick is 'immediate'? Can he still pick up the ball until an opponent joins?

This seems like a very fuzzy area.

 

[Christy]

hi chris r.
we were advised by our society ,
Q1 ) So, tackled player sets the ball back. Teammate arrives and stops over the ball then picks up the ball and goes forward. Has a mono-ruck formed? Have off-side lines been established?
we were advised = NO RUCK FORMED PLAY ON . { treat it as tackle only , through gate & 1 meter protection }

Q 2 }If the arriving player scoops up the ball and doesn't stop then we have a tackle but no ruck. But what if he momentarily stops? How quick is 'immediate'? Can he still pick up the ball until an opponent joins?
we were advised = ignore the word immediate .

however , if arriving support player , latches on to his team mate . if he now lets go & picks up ball , whilst still over same , its hands in the ruck .

he can handle the ball , just as last season providing he gets hands to it 1st . { this app[lies to both sides }

in relation to all black game . my view is .
as black nr 1 placed ball in front of her self & released ball , & got back up on her feet before playing ball { only just back up on feet though } & then got her hands back on ball before any body else , i agree with play on .

had that right knee been still on floor , i would of blown for playing ball whilst off your feet .
also was she tackled or did she simply blow away & through england deffender ??

happy reffing folks .

 

[crossref]

The Law question from the OP still isn't really resolved.
Viz.. if
..the ball carrier is tackled
.. ball carrier's team mate arrives and stands over the ball
..offside lines are formed
..ball carrier gets to feet in front of the offside line
Q. Does the ball carrier have to get back onside before playing the ball ?

 

[Treadmore]

had that right knee been still on floor , i would of blown for playing ball whilst off your feet .

I thought she was off her feet in real-time, your comment made me check: right knee on the floor when she reacquires the ball. A moment after this she puts her weight on the ball through her hands to get back to her feet. If you think she was tackled then you would give a penalty.

also was she tackled or did she simply blow away & through england deffender ??

happy reffing folks .

Good question. She certainly blew through! But it looked like the England defender just about remained in contact as black #1 hit the ground. Also seems black #1 assumes she was tackled - she takes care to release the ball before reacquiring.

 

[Treadmore]

The Law question from the OP still isn't really resolved.
Viz.. if
..the ball carrier is tackled
.. ball carrier's team mate arrives and stands over the ball
..offside lines are formed
..ball carrier gets to feet in front of the offside line
Q. Does the ball carrier have to get back onside before playing the ball ?

Who knows? We have to rely on the various bits of guidance and personal views to make sense of it.

From what I have read here and been told elsewhere I assume that in a dynamic situation you do not call a ruck and as the tackled player comes from her side of the ball, then all is ok from the gate perspective.

However, for this specific case in the OP look at white 18, although she loses sight of the ball and goes eventually goes past black 1, there is contact between her and the black 8 supporting player - is that enough to form a ruck? And if not, is her presence at the tackle forming a ruck under the new law trial? In the spirit of the new law trial (as I understand it) I think she has formed a mono-ruck.

I have no idea if I'm correct on that But the OP seems a good example for how difficult it might be to apply this new law trial in dynamic and busy tackle situations.