[Scrum] Ball at 8's feet. His bind changes into only hands-on. What should you do ?

[CrouchTPEngage]

Something came up in a game last week and I have to hold my hand up now as I think I got this wrong.

Reds v Blues.
5m attacking scrum to Red. Ball gets quickly to the Red 8's feet and ,they have dominance and it is moving forwards.
The 8 has 2 hands (only) gripping the 2nd row shirts and is skillfully dribbling the ball forwards.
I'm more focussed on blue to offend here and miss 8's bind at the time.
It moves quite quickly and the 8 dives on the ball as its on the goal line. I award a try.
It was quite a shove. All over in a few seconds.

The blue captain asks, if, should the 8 not have a proper bind in that situation again, is the scrum over and is he ok to come round and tackle him?
I dont think he can do that but I should have been quicker to spot the loss of proper bind.
Now, I'm thinking I should have shouted "use it ! " as the laws say something about "If the 8 unbinds to pick up the ball then he must do so immediately".
If he then doesnt pick up the ball immediately, what would you give ?

 

[crossref]

This is one of those things that ideally you have already warned him about when he did it earlier, so that it doesn't feel like a gotcha to ping him now

If it's really the first time he has done it then it is somewhat tricky , how material was it

 

[CrouchTPEngage]

This is one of those things that ideally you have already warned him about when he did it earlier, so that it doesn't feel like a gotcha to ping him now

If it's really the first time he has done it then it is somewhat tricky , how material was it

Very material. I awarded a try. Lesson learned.
I suppose they probably would have scored a push over try anyway if he had maintained just his 1 arm bind. So ,in that sense, it may not have affected the outcome.

 

[didds]

the laws don't actually seem to apply a sanction for lack of following this requirement!

[LAWS]20.10
(c) Hindmost player unbinds. The hindmost player in a scrum is the player whose feet are nearest the team’s own goal line. If the hindmost player unbinds from the scrum with the ball at that player’s feet and picks up the ball, the scrum ends.
(d)
When a team has the ball at the number 8’s feet, and is trying to move forward but is not succeeding in doing so, the referee will call “use-it” once the ball has been at the number 8’s feet for a reasonable amount of time (3-5 seconds). The team must then use the ball immediately
[/LAWS]

Thing is awarding a re-scrum gives that #8 two bites of the cherry..

didds

 

[didds]

If it's really the first time he has done it then it is somewhat tricky , how material was it

According to the OP he scored from it so I'd say MAJORLY material - IF the agreement is that an unbound #8 with the ball at his feet but failing to pick it up means the ball can be poached. Other than the oppo didn;t actually try and take the ball (fear of PT because of an unusual/unsure situation?]. But not we are in the very dodgy area of "if the oppo don't try is it now not material" stuff - because we don;t know whey the oppo are not trying something.

??

didds

 

[didds]

Very material. I awarded a try. Lesson learned.
I suppose they probably would have scored a push over try anyway if he had maintained just his 1 arm bind. So ,in that sense, it may not have affected the outcome.

except if there is clarity over what the defending side can do with a chariot riding but legally unbound #8 with the ball at his feet the outcome may have been very different.



didds

 

[ChrisR]

Ouch! Tricky one for you. Don't lose any sleep over awarding the try as a. your focus is on Blue and b. it sounds like the try was going to be scored anyway.

However, Blue skipper has a point. Had the scrum ended? By inserting "and picks up the ball" in 20.10(c) the law has left a gap. If hindmost unbinds and doesn't pick up the ball the only sanction is PK for not maintaining a bind. That would have been popular.

- - - Updated - - -

Ouch! Tricky one for you. Don't lose any sleep over awarding the try as a. your focus is on Blue and b. it sounds like the try was going to be scored anyway.

However, Blue skipper has a point. Had the scrum ended? By inserting "and picks up the ball" in 20.10(c) the law has left a gap. If hindmost unbinds and doesn't pick up the ball the only sanction is PK for not maintaining a bind. That would have been popular.

 

[crossref]

Yes the decision was important .. but I meant how material was the binding .. there is a scale of not binding from barely perceptible through to obvious from the far touchline ..

 

[Christy]

If ball is on try line , i would say scrum is over any way . And try is good .
I would say had 8 completely un bound before pack gets to try line , you would of seen it , and their 9 would of come round and tackled .
Sounds like good try scored .

 

[Chris_j]

If the 8 is not bound and the ball is at his feet before the scrum reaches the line then scrum is over, the ball is out and forwards are offside if they interfere in play. So if they continue to plough a path to the goal line the best call would be accidental offside, scrum 5 defending team. Penalty against attackers seems OTT to me.

 

[CrouchTPEngage]

If the 8 is not bound and the ball is at his feet before the scrum reaches the line then scrum is over, the ball is out and forwards are offside if they interfere in play. So if they continue to plough a path to the goal line the best call would be accidental offside, scrum 5 defending team. Penalty against attackers seems OTT to me.

Yes. That's plausible but would you shout something like "Unbound. Use It.!" or " Ball is out!" to help the players understand what's happening.
In my case, it was only after I replayed the image in my mind about what I;d seen, I was clear that No.8 had dribbled the ball about 6 metres with only his fingers pinching onto a bit if his team-mate's shirts.
I suspect, given his team were so dominant in the scrum anyway, that they would have scored a try if the minimum bind had been maintained throughout.
I am not sure, however, what I would have done if the oppo's flanker had run round and dived on the ball.
Cheers for advice , everyone !

 

[HappyScrummie]

If the 8 is not bound and the ball is at his feet before the scrum reaches the line then scrum is over, the ball is out and forwards are offside if they interfere in play. So if they continue to plough a path to the goal line the best call would be accidental offside, scrum 5 defending team. Penalty against attackers seems OTT to me.

I think this sounds like a good way of dealing with it - if you shout "Unbound eight - use it!" and they continue to drive forward, then at least you've warned them.

Agree PK may be too harsh - forwards in front of him have no idea that he's unbound. So accidental offside the right call - just as if they attempt to maul at a lineout when the opposition have not engaged.

 

[Wedgie]

Blue captain : "[Sir] if, should the 8 not have a proper bind in that situation again, is the scrum over and [am I] ok to come round and tackle him? "
Me :"Yes"
Me : "White 8 - as soon as you move to hands only grip you are deemed to be unbound, hence the ball is out of the scrum at that time. Do you understand?"

 

[Camquin]

Then what do you do when the next scrum as it starts to go forward

 

[Wedgie]

Then what do you do when the next scrum as it starts to go forward

Nothing.

If white 8 unbound I would fully expect Blue 9 to go for the ball and White 8 to react (or not - if he answered my question to him incorrectly ;-)

 

[Ian_Cook]

..how material was it

Very material. I awarded a try. Lesson learned.
I suppose they probably would have scored a push over try anyway if he had maintained just his 1 arm bind. So ,in that sense, it may not have affected the outcome.

According to the OP he scored from it so I'd say MAJORLY material

Ouch! Tricky one for you. Don't lose any sleep over awarding the try as a. your focus is on Blue and b. it sounds like the try was going to be scored anyway.

IMO This depends on what you regard as "material"

I agree with CTPE and ChrisR to a certain extent.

Had the No 8 maintained at least a one arm bind, would the try have been scored anyway? Very likely, therefore, not material.

Did the fact that he had both arms unbound give him any advantage that would not have had with at least one arm bound? Unlikely IMO, so not material.

But here is an interesting point. Had CTPE spotted the unbound No. 8 and called "use it", then No 8 has 5 seconds. If the Red scrum keeps driving forward, and the try is scored before that 5 seconds elapses, does that count as "use it"!

And there is another little "Glitch on the Matrix"

[LAWS]20.10 ENDING THE SCRUM
(d) When a team has the ball at the number 8’s feet, and is trying to move forward but is not
succeeding in doing so , the referee will call “use-it” once the ball has been at the number 8’s
feet for a reasonable amount of time (3-5 seconds). The team must then use the ball
immediately.[/LAWS]
So, if the scrum is moving forward, the "use it" scenario does not apply, in which case, you go back to...

[LAWS]20.10 ENDING THE SCRUM
(c) Hindmost player unbinds. The hindmost player in a scrum is the player whose feet are
nearest the team’s own goal line. If the hindmost player unbinds from the scrum with the
ball at that player’s feet and picks up the ball , the scrum ends.[/LAWS]
... except that, the scrum does not end until the No. 8 picks up the ball, therefore, IMO, the correct call is...

[LAWS]20.1 FORMING A SCRUM
(e) Number of players: eight. A scrum must have eight players from each team. All eight
players must stay bound to the scrum until it ends. Each front row must have three players
in it , no more and no less. Two locks must form the second row.[/LAWS]
A PK against Red 8 for unbinding before the scrum ends, in just the same way that you should PK a flanker who is unbound and holding on by only his hand.

 

[Camquin]

But how does the 9 know when you consider the eight to have unbound - are you happy to have him ask (repeatedly)?

 

[Wedgie]

But how does the 9 know when you consider the eight to have unbound - are you happy to have him ask (repeatedly)?

If Blue asks in the original discussion, then I will give him my opinion, which I would make sure I shared with the attacking 8. It is no different from many other parts of the game - judgement.

No, not happy to have him ask repeatedly. Much like, I might reply once to "is that ball out of the ruck, sir?", but if this question is repetitious then I will not reply and ask the questioner's captain to stop his team's chirping.

Unlike the ruck situation which can by very dynamic and changeable, the 8's that I have seen change their bind only do this once.