[Law] Ball "grounding" inside a shirt

[winchesterref]

I awarded the try.

Seemed most equitable, if no shirt it would likely have been a try anyway. Seemed unfair to deny his efforts.

 

[Rich_NL]

Award the try!

Consider the player's shirt as a part of his body. Would you deny the try because a player fell on the ball and only his shirt was in contact with the ball?

Considering the shirt as part of his body, it's definitely held up - the player's body is between the ball and the ground.

 

[ChrisR]

Considering the shirt as part of his body, it's definitely held up - the player's body is between the ball and the ground.

That would be most strange to deny a player the try because he 'held up' his own attempt. Errr, don't think so.

 

[RobLev]

That would be most strange to deny a player the try because he 'held up' his own attempt. Errr, don't think so.

What's strange about disallowing a try when the ball hasn't been grounded?

 

[Rushforth]

What's strange about disallowing a try when the ball hasn't been grounded?

Since "ground" technically means "grass", are you suggesting that you would disallow a try if it happens to be C&O pressed down in a muddy area without a single blade of grass in the in-goal? (I don't think you are.)

My own best alternative is PT with RC reduced to YC since the players wrapping him up in his shirt aren't fully to blame. Should they both get YCs?

 

[crossref]

if somebody else's shirt had been completely removed, and was on the ground in the in-goal area, I don't think we'd have any problem awarding a touchdown on top of the shirt.

 

[didds]

My own best alternative is PT with RC reduced to YC since the players wrapping him up in his shirt aren't fully to blame. Should they both get YCs?

I am presuming this is irony!

didds

 

[RobLev]

Since "ground" technically means "grass",

Not in English or even (from my limited knowledge of the language) Dutch; certainly not in the Laws. It would make it difficult to score a try at Allianz Park if you were correct.

are you suggesting that you would disallow a try if it happens to be C&O pressed down in a muddy area without a single blade of grass in the in-goal? (I don't think you are.)...

You're right, I'm not. Indeed, I would award the try in the OP in the unlikely events that I (a) ever refereed a rugby match and (b) this happened. I would ignore the shirt, just as I would ignore a piece of paper on the ground (whether or not there was any grass, artificial or otherwise, underneath it).

Marauder, however, was considering the shirt as part of the player's body; Rich_NL correctly pointed out that if that were the approach, the try must be disallowed because the "try-scorer"'s body was between ball and ground.

 

[ChrisR]

Yes, when you put it that way .... Agree with your thinking re. 'held up' but would still award the try in the OP.

 

[OB..]

What's strange about disallowing a try when the ball hasn't been grounded?

The insistence on an overly literal approach to the laws.

 

[Rushforth]

Not in English or even (from my limited knowledge of the language) Dutch; certainly not in the Laws. It would make it difficult to score a try at Allianz Park if you were correct.

I was being a little silly, OB.. hits the nail on the head but

[LAWS]1.1(b) (b) Type of surface. The surface should be grass but may also be sand, clay, snow or artificial grass. The game may be played on snow, provided the snow and underlying surface are safe to play on. It shall not be a permanently hard surface such as concrete or asphalt. In the case of artificial grass surfaces, they must conform to World Rugby Regulation 22.[/LAWS]

I suppose mud and clay are the same.

 

[FlipFlop]

The issue with a shirt over the head is that you can't see the ball. Was it dropped for example? There is clear doubt about grounding.

Also teh defence can't strip the ball now, so lose a defensive tactic.

So if the shirt comes over the head and traps the ball, quick whistle and scrum restart..

 

[OB..]

The issue with a shirt over the head is that you can't see the ball. Was it dropped for example? There is clear doubt about grounding.

Also teh defence can't strip the ball now, so lose a defensive tactic.

So if the shirt comes over the head and traps the ball, quick whistle and scrum restart..

If it happens in midfield, yes. If it happens as the ball carrier is falling over the try line, no. Make a sensible judgement on the actual circumstances.

 

[didds]

Other than "we'd all laugh" ... still no answer about what to blow if the shirted player "scored" over T-i-G by accident/mistaken belief.

didds

 

[crossref]

Other than "we'd all laugh" ... still no answer about what to blow if the shirted player "scored" over T-i-G by accident/mistaken belief.

didds

so the scenario could be something like
- attacking kick deep into the in goal area
- two players jump for it, it's close, the attacking player gets possession the ball, but a defender ends up with a grip on his shirt
- attacker tries to ground the ball for the try, the defender tries to keep him upright, but with only a handful of shirt ends up dragging the attacker's shirt over his head and over the ball
- attacker wiggles free and - unsighted - dives to score but in doing so crosses the DBL


I'd just go for the 22m drop out

 

[didds]

And you would award the try if he landed in-goal?

didds