Ball in Hand or on Ground?

[dskit]

Hello All - newly minted ref and first post.
This seems like an obvious question but I've searched all over for an answer.

We have a penalty and the ref makes a signal at the spot of the foul.
Sometimes a player will pick up the ball and play it from the mark in hand. Sometimes the ball in on the ground and the player must tap it through the mark to put it in play.

What/why/how do these 2 scenarios manifest themselves?

 

[Decorily]

Hello All - newly minted ref and first post.
This seems like an obvious question but I've searched all over for an answer.

We have a penalty and the ref makes a signal at the spot of the foul.
Sometimes a player will pick up the ball and play it from the mark in hand. Sometimes the ball in on the ground and the player must tap it through the mark to put it in play.

What/why/how do these 2 scenarios manifest themselves?

Hi and welcome.
Not entirely sure what your specific question is....
Read through law 20 and the relevant definitions and / or rephrase your query.

 

[dskit]

20.11 The ball must be kicked a visible distance. If the kicker is holding it, it must clearly leave the hands. If it is on the ground, it must clearly leave the mark. Once the kick has been successfully taken the kicker may play the ball again.

To re-state: What determines the "IF"? Why would it be on the ground and stay on the ground? Why would it be in hand? Is the answer so simple I can't see it? LOL.

 

[buff]

It depends on what the non-offending player wants to do. If he has the ball in his hands, he may choose to tap it out of hand, or put it on the ground and tap it through the mark. If it is on the ground he can tap it through the mark or pick it up and tap it out of hand. The player has a choice, and 20.11 explains how to properly execute that choice.

 

[didds]

think back far ago enough when all PKs could be kicked from the ground - at posts, to touch etc. Ball on the ground then is just "another option".
Of course in more recent tiomes that ball on the ground kicked to touch has been outlawed to speed the game up.

As for why players tap on the ground - they can tap also from the hands. Its just whatever a player feels comfortable with. Though of course _maybe_ a tap on the ground and pick is quicker to pass away then a kick from hand in te air a little etc . Just personal preference.

welcome to the madness.

 

[Decorily]

What determines the "IF"?

It's really a case of 'who' determines the if!

The player determines whether to take the the penalty kick on the ground or from hand.

 

[Dickie E]

If it is on the ground, it must clearly leave the mark.

noting that, in this instance, the "mark" is where the player taps it from which could be some distance behind where the referee made the mark.

 

[smeagol]

As for why players tap on the ground - they can tap also from the hands. Its just whatever a player feels comfortable with. Though of course _maybe_ a tap on the ground and pick is quicker to pass away then a kick from hand in te air a little etc . Just personal preference.

In high-level 7s, I've seen an uptick in the acting SH tap the ball on the ground to quickly restart play.

Makes sense from the perspective of trying to get a line break while the offending side is still retreating.

 

[Stu10]

20.11 The ball must be kicked a visible distance. If the kicker is holding it, it must clearly leave the hands. If it is on the ground, it must clearly leave the mark. Once the kick has been successfully taken the kicker may play the ball again.

To re-state: What determines the "IF"? Why would it be on the ground and stay on the ground? Why would it be in hand? Is the answer so simple I can't see it? LOL.

It's primarily a speed and skill decision... some players are not comfortable dropping the ball from hand and kicking it back up to themselves in the heat of the moment, sometimes it's quicker to tap the ball on the floor and quickly pass away, especially if already on the floor.

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

It's primarily a speed and skill decision... some players are not comfortable dropping the ball from hand and kicking it back up to themselves in the heat of the moment, sometimes it's quicker to tap the ball on the floor and quickly pass away, especially if already on the floor.

Correct Stu.
I was never skillful enough to tap and regather from my hands and in my experience at my level 80% of players share my skill set.
I've lost count of the number of times I've seen players try the quick tap from hand, cock it up and the ball ends up a couple of metres in front of them on the floor. Usually everyone stops, half laughs than I shout play on, he's taken it an off we go.

 

[crossref]

If your objective is to pass, I think that tap off the floor might be quicker
If your intention is to run, though, a tap from hand is definitely the fastest .. indeed it can be done on the move

 

[jdeagro]

Correct Stu.
I was never skillful enough to tap and regather from my hands and in my experience at my level 80% of players share my skill set.
I've lost count of the number of times I've seen players try the quick tap from hand, cock it up and the ball ends up a couple of metres in front of them on the floor. Usually everyone stops, half laughs than I shout play on, he's taken it an off we go.

Not really the same thing but tangentially related you reminded me of. I've always been one of the few to recognize a good opportunity for taking a quick tap penalty, at the level I typically play at. But one game I recall, I took one in hand, started breaking away, and for some reason I thought the ref called it off and blew it back so I stopped halfway through my breakaway, and because of my reaction, so did every defender around me stop too thinking it was off. I look over at the ref and he just looks at me wide eyed, laughs, and says he was allowing the quick tap, but because everyone wants a stoppage we'll just reset with the penalty at the original mark. It was one of those breaking the fourth wall moments I'll never forget lol.

 

[Stu10]

Not really the same thing but tangentially related you reminded me of. I've always been one of the few to recognize a good opportunity for taking a quick tap penalty, at the level I typically play at. But one game I recall, I took one in hand, started breaking away, and for some reason I thought the ref called it off and blew it back so I stopped halfway through my breakaway, and because of my reaction, so did every defender around me stop too thinking it was off. I look over at the ref and he just looks at me wide eyed, laughs, and says he was allowing the quick tap, but because everyone wants a stoppage we'll just reset with the penalty at the original mark. It was one of those breaking the fourth wall moments I'll never forget lol.

I remember watching my son play circa u13 when a similar thing happened, everyone stopped after the tap, except my son who was on the defending side and followed through with a crunching tackle

 

[didds]

I remember watching my son play circa u13 when a similar thing happened, everyone stopped after the tap, except my son who was on the defending side and followed through with a crunching tackle

yup. Ive done that.
tap PK about 6 or 7 metres out, oppo SH tapped it - and apparently the ref said something. 29 players heard it and stopped. The ref didnt blow the whistle ...
I didnt hear it. Or stop.

I sadly put the poor bugger in hospital because he wasnt braced for the impact of a 18 stone prop on the hoof.

It all got a bit... tasty ... in the immediate post-tackle moments...

 

[crossref]

Lesson for the ref. If you want players to stop you need to blow the whistle

 

[crossref]

Lesson for the ref. If you want players to stop you need to blow the whistle

This is something that I know I am more sensitive to than many refs, but I am very aware of the dangers of someone holding the ball, genuinely believing that the ball is dead, and meanwhile an opponent genuinely believes the ball is live. On or other is mistaken

A good example is someone who thinks he has called a valid mark, but for some reason the mark has not been given

It can sometimes happen over confusion with quick tap PKs, as didds described.

We once discussed a case of a scrum half standing in the mark while considering options and absent mindedly dropping the ball onto his foot and back into hands (thus accidentally taking the PK)

In these cases I think the ref should blow whistle on safety grounds

 

[Dickie E]

We once discussed a case of a scrum half standing in the mark while considering options and absent mindedly dropping the ball onto his foot and back into hands (thus accidentally taking the PK)

Law Clarifications | World Rugby Laws

Clarifications in law for the game of rugby union, as requested by unions or individuals.

www.world.rugby

 

[crossref]

You have a great memory Dickie ! .
This wasn't quite what I meant, but brilliant find

 

[Dickie E]

But I do agree with you, CR. An astute referee should be mindful to these type of events and use the whistle or shout "play on" as early as possible.

And I do look for intent in these situations. If a player inadvertently kicks the ball, I'm not going to be Mr Jobsworth and allow him to be clattered.

 

[Locke]

Law Clarifications | World Rugby Laws

Clarifications in law for the game of rugby union, as requested by unions or individuals.

www.world.rugby

I’m not following WR’s clarification here.
If a player (intentionally, to restart play) drops the ball onto his foot and the ball bounces back up into his hand or any visible distance in any direction, why isn’t that a properly taken PK?