Bledisloe 3

[The Fat]

As Ian C said...senior players seem to control the deck of cards...nucifora, andy friend of brumbies in that list.

Maybe Pulver is dialling Jake White right now and seeing if he's interested. right in his alley this close to the RWC!

And Jake White's game plan is easy to learn and follow. Kick it, kick it again and then kick it some more. You would have to think that there would only be two applicants. Jake White and Michael Cheika. Maybe throw in the Kiwi (Smith???) as a dark horse but what odds they'd risk the backlash of naming another coach from across the ditch so close to the Robbie Deans experiment? Maybe Sir Graham isn't busy at the moment?
Expect to see Cheika named before Monday night.
Whoever gets the job will have a tough gig leaving the country for a tour within a week. Will have to work with all current support staff for the tour seeing as we really are at the eleventh hour.

 

[Ian_Cook]

There were two key decisions in the game that I thought were dubious.

The YC to Patrick Tuipolotu.
He never took his eyes of the ball when he jumped for it. I thought the guidance was that as long as both players were jumping for the ball then it is considered accidental. Secondly, if he was culpable for what happened to Rob Simmons then so was Simmons' lifter. He just let his team-mate go,

The Aaron Smith try
I've watched the replay this morning, with particular attention to the period leading up to it. I am sure that the Wallabies offence (not rolling away) for which advantage was being played) took place considerably further to the left (at least 5m) than the place from where Smith took to the QTK that he scored from. I don't think it was his problem as he took it right next to the referee, I just think CJ was indicating the mark in the wrong place.

 

[The Fat]

There were two key decisions in the game that I thought were dubious.

The YC to Patrick Tuipolotu.
He never took his eyes of the ball when he jumped for it. I thought the guidance was that as long as both players were jumping for the ball then it is considered accidental. Secondly, if he was culpable for what happened to Rob Simmons then so was Simmons' lifter. He just let his team-mate go,

The Aaron Smith try
I've watched the replay this morning, with particular attention to the period leading up to it. I am sure that the Wallabies offence (not rolling away) for which advantage was being played) took place considerably further to the left (at least 5m) than the place from where Smith took to the QTK that he scored from. I don't think it was his problem as he took it right next to the referee, I just think CJ was indicating the mark in the wrong place.

When I watched the replay of the YC incident it looked like both players were going for the ball but I thought that the clincher for the ref and TMO was Patrick Tuipolotu's hand on Simmons' shoulder which makes it look like he pulls him over.

Agree with your 2nd statement but smart play by Smith to not take the quick tap until CJ stopped moving across field before tapping it from behind "the mark".

There is a 3rd key decision. Nick White kicks the ball out to give the ABs a LO with a minute to go. Should have kept the ball in hand. If they end up giving away a PK then they will be forced to defend but if they manage to hold and protect the ball for 60 seconds they win the game.

 

[menace]

When I watched the replay of the YC incident it looked like both players were going for the ball but I thought that the clincher for the ref and TMO was Patrick Tuipolotu's hand on Simmons' shoulder which makes it look like he pulls him over.

Agree with your 2nd statement but smart play by Smith to not take the quick tap until CJ stopped moving across field before tapping it from behind "the mark".

There is a 3rd key decision. Nick White kicks the ball out to give the ABs a LO with a minute to go. Should have kept the ball in hand. If they end up giving away a PK then they will be forced to defend but if they manage to hold and protect the ball for 60 seconds they win the game.

Yes,
Yes, and
Yes.

Add to that the other critical decision, was the knock on by NZ from a restart and NZ go on to score in that set.

Was it me, or did anyone else think the ball was coming out slow, and CJ was happy not to signal advantage in the hope the ball would come out (although deliberately slowed) and he wouldn't have to PK and if the ball did emerge then he'd play on (without advantage)??? Quite a few times, after a considerable time and a number of offences, CJ would go back to the original offence but there was no proceeding advantage signal. Is this the new way of managing the game? Or did he just have an off night and his ARs were giving him the call and that why there was no adv signal?
It just happened often enough to suggest that it was deliberate by CJ.

(Ps. CJ missed a lot of knock ons)

 

[Ian_Cook]

When I watched the replay of the YC incident it looked like both players were going for the ball but I thought that the clincher for the ref and TMO was Patrick Tuipolotu's hand on Simmons' shoulder which makes it look like he pulls him over.

Yes I agree, although I still think its manifestly unfair that if two opponents both jump for the ball (as they have every right to do) if they collide and the player who gets the ball crashes to earth, the other guy is just about an automatic YC. What if Simmons plain missed the ball and it fell into Tuipolotu's hands, and he still sent Simmons crashing to earth? Would Tuipolotu still be liable to PK and YC?

This aspect of the game needs to have something done about it, because it really has become a lottery of late. We've seen everything from "play on" to RC for incidents that have all looked very similar.

Agree with your 2nd statement but smart play by Smith to not take the quick tap until CJ stopped moving across field before tapping it from behind "the mark".

On review I am sure I hear CJ shout "YES" fractionally after Smith takes the kick (at 5:35 on the video below). This would seem to indicate that he is happy with both the place he kicked it and that it was kicked a visible distance out of the hand, which it was.

Just after the try is awarded Foley is seen complaining that the ball wasn't kicked (5:39 - I'm assuming that by his very obvious hand/foot actions) and Horwill can be seen pointing further outfield. Foley is just plain wrong, but Horwill has a point.

Here is where the PK occurred. All dash lines on the field are 5m long - Law 1.3 (b) - so this
is about 2½m outside the 15m line.

Here is where the QTK is taken (obviously it is propelled a visible distance; it ends up head
high). The yellow line bottom left is the inside end of the dash line connected to the 15m line
and he's taken the kick at least another 6m inside that .

I make that about 11m infield of where the offence took place. Fair enough for Aaron Smith, he played what was in front of him, but CJ has given him a considerable advantage of not having to run the extra 11m; all time that the Wallabies needed to retire.

I'd be annoyed with a referee that allowed the opposition that much latitude and they scored a try from it.

There is a 3rd key decision. Nick White kicks the ball out to give the ABs a LO with a minute to go. Should have kept the ball in hand. If they end up giving away a PK then they will be forced to defend but if they manage to hold and protect the ball for 60 seconds they win the game.

Yep, that is a critical decision by a player though, not the referee.

Add to that the other critical decision, was the knock on by NZ from a restart and NZ go on to score in that set.

I though that was quite obviously knocked back by Gold (Higginbotham?). CJ actually says as much, and I think he got the word from the Jaco Peyper, the AR, who was in perfect position on the other side from CJ and the camera.. Retallick didn't get his hands near the ball.

 

[menace]

Yes I agree, although I still think its manifestly unfair that if two opponents both jump for the ball (as they have every right to do) if they collide and the player who gets the ball crashes to earth, the other guy is just about an automatic YC. What if Simmons plain missed the ball and it fell into Tuipolotu's hands, and he still sent Simmons crashing to earth? Would Tuipolotu still be liable to PK and YC?

This aspect of the game needs to have something done about it, because it really has become a lottery of late. We've seen everything from "play on" to RC for incidents that have all looked very similar.

I agree, when I first saw it I said to my son that it's not even a PK cause they both had eyes on the ball, then I saw the slo mo replay and saw the hand on the shoulder and thought he'd be in trouble for a YC. I think the outcome cause the YC, not the action. Possibly understandable, but I would have accepted just a PK on that one. But then again I was wrong on the Hooper one last time.


On review I am sure I hear CJ shout "YES" fractionally after Smith takes the kick (at 5:35 on the video below). This would seem to indicate that he is happy with both the place he kicked it and that it was kicked a visible distance out of the hand, which it was.

But was that a case of him being happy or just reacting to what the player did in the heat of that moment possibly thinking it was 'close enough' and didn't want to deny NZ advantage in case The mark was actually correct?? I know I've done that. As it stands oz were knackered and wouldn't have stopped it anyway even if CJ went to the precise mark.

Just after the try is awarded Foley is seen complaining that the ball wasn't kicked (5:39 - I'm assuming that by his very obvious hand/foot actions) and Horwill can be seen pointing further outfield. Foley is just plain wrong, but Horwill has a point.

Agreed. I suspect Foley was just fooled by the speed in which #9 executed that whole move. Smart play.

Yep, that is a critical decision by a player though, not the referee.

And he should be smacked!


I though that was quite obviously knocked back by Gold (Higginbotham?). CJ actually says as much, and I think he got the word from the Jaco Peyper, the AR, who was in perfect position on the other side from CJ and the camera.. Retallick didn't get his hands near the ball.

That's not what I saw in real time. And I thought the slomo showed it came of a black hand. But maybe my bias glasses were on?

My comments in bold.

 

[basilfawlty]

If it was only the press I think he would have stuck it out. Pulver spoke about full support of the squad being questioned so whilst he could just disregard those outside the group, pretty hard to work with players who have lost confidence in you.
Only two choices in such an environment. Sack all of the players who aren't on the same page as the coach or the coach walks to keep the squad together. The irony there is will there be resentment between the players who supported McKenzie and those that didn't? The problems within the group may be no better as a result of McKenzie walking.

But it won't be his problem....

 

[Ian_Cook]

If it was only the press I think he would have stuck it out. Pulver spoke about full support of the squad being questioned so whilst he could just disregard those outside the group, pretty hard to work with players who have lost confidence in you.
Only two choices in such an environment. Sack all of the players who aren't on the same page as the coach or the coach walks to keep the squad together. The irony there is will there be resentment between the players who supported McKenzie and those that didn't? The problems within the group may be no better as a result of McKenzie walking.

I remember when Robbie Deans was the coach, Quade Cooper called the atmosphere "toxic". Well, I'd have to argue that it does not appear to have got any better. It was player power plus the Sydney media who put the pressure on to have Deans out of the job, and put further pressure to get Link into in. IMO, the job has become something of a poison chalice in recent years.

 

[chrismtl]

My comments in bold.

For the Knock on/knock back discussion, I slo-mo'd the slo-mo and still couldn't tell if it came off a black arm last. The first contact was off of yellow, and if it is incredibly difficult to tell if the ball hits the black player as it is coming down. According to me, when I was watching in real time, it looked like a knock on, and when I saw the replay it looked like it was off yellow. Here's teh first contact that the ball makes. I don't have any issue with the way it was called after watching the replay.

View attachment 3040

 

[The Fat]

I remember when Robbie Deans was the coach, Quade Cooper called the atmosphere "toxic". Well, I'd have to argue that it does not appear to have got any better. It was player power plus the Sydney media who put the pressure on to have Deans out of the job, and put further pressure to get Link into in. IMO, the job has become something of a poison chalice in recent years.

Don't be surprised if Stephen Larkham takes on a "caretaker coach" role for the NH tour.

I think the ARU will want Cheika but I don't think the negotiations could take place and be finalised this week. The Waratahs will not want to lose Cheika for 2015 and I have been told today that the Wallabies coaching job cannot be done by someone who is also coaching a franchise.
Jake White would be a MAJOR step back from the type of rugby the ARU want the Wallabies to be playing. They are cash strapped and desperately need to get the Wallabies to be consistently playing the type of rugby they played last night in order to get bums on seats, sponsors on board and be relevant enough to have some negotiating power when TV rights are up for renewal.

 

[The Fat]

Went hunting for this incident to make sure I remembered it correctly from last night.
55:30 on game clock and Wallabies move the ball to the right about 30m out from ABs line. Gold BC is grabbed by 2 ABs and Beauden Barrett (#10) strips the ball which goes towards Gold DBL and CJ calls "Stripped out by black, play on". Barrett is the next man to play the ball and as he passes from low down, a gold player tries to intercept but knocks-on. CJ awards a scrum to the ABs when it should have been a knock-on by Barrett for an attacking scrum to the Wallabies mid-field and 30m out.
Comments???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nBeQkpFbMg

 

[leaguerefaus]

Went hunting for this incident to make sure I remembered it correctly from last night.
55:30 on game clock and Wallabies move the ball to the right about 30m out from ABs line. Gold BC is grabbed by 2 ABs and Beauden Barrett (#10) strips the ball which goes towards Gold DBL and CJ calls "Stripped out by black, play on". Barrett is the next man to play the ball and as he passes from low down, a gold player tries to intercept but knocks-on. CJ awards a scrum to the ABs when it should have been a knock-on by Barrett for an attacking scrum to the Wallabies mid-field and 30m out.
Comments???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nBeQkpFbMg

No doubt that's a NZ knock on. The really confusing part is that he has clearly seen it but then doesn't act on it.

 

[Ian_Cook]

No doubt that's a NZ knock on. The really confusing part is that he has clearly seen it but then doesn't act on it.

Which may mean that he didn't think it was a knock-on. It looks like a Black KO to me; perhaps he saw something we didn't,

touched a gold hand and went backwards?
stripped by pulling the gold arm rather than the ball?

Without super-slo mo and a zoom, you cant see the "detail"

 

[Dixpat]

I've noticed a lot of angst from Aussie posters re "alleged" illegalities by the ABs and I thought I would bring a little balance by making an observation that the Wobblies consistently took defenders out passed the breakdown and that went unpunished.

All in all perhaps not CJ's best piece of work but to be honest I've sensed a decline in his standard of officiating over time - perhaps it is because we see too much of him

 

[Crucial]

Can hardly criticise the decision making on incident where slo-mo slo-mo isn't even clear.

With the Smith try, I said straight away to the wife that we got away with that one being well off the mark but hten when you look at CJs game management it was consistent with him running a fast and loose game. The pace from the outset was very high speed and he seemed to decide to go with it rather than stifle the spectacle.
This also meant that players were often immune to flying into breakdowns from all angles and the attacking team was getting advantage form that.
As for players not rolling away. That was partly a symptom of allowing a 'wide gate'. It is difficult to even move sideways from the tackle if you are copping a body entering from the side. That's not to say that players on both sides weren't pushing the boundary to disrupt speed of ball, just that those actions sometimes became worse. McCaw's penalty (the one kicked by White) was an example of that. He was actually trying to get out the way (just fast enough) while also getting impeded by arriving players.
White probably felt no option but to kick away the ball at the end as at that stage the AB reserve forwards were smashing back Oz ball carriers at will. It was a wrong decision but an instinctive one. His forwards should have been taking the responsibility and calling for the ball and backing themselves.

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

Just noticed the final conversion is over a minute after the try was scored!

 

[chbg]

So?

You may wish to revise 2014 9B.1(e).

 

[Ian_Cook]

Just noticed the final conversion is over a minute after the try was scored!

[LAWS]9.B.1 TAKING A CONVERSION KICK
(e) The kicker must take the kick within one minute and thirty seconds (ninety seconds) from
the time a try has been awarded. The player must take the kick within one minute and thirty
seconds even if the ball rolls over and has to be placed again.
Sanction: The kick is disallowed if the kicker does not take the kick within the time
allowed.[/LAWS]


Was the final conversion over a minute and a half after the try was scored!?




[Oops; ninja'd by chbg]

 

[menace]

McCaw's penalty (the one kicked by White) was an example of that. He was actually trying to get out the way (just fast enough) while also getting impeded by arriving players.

You had me nodding my head until this sentence.....which then blew all your credibility away. :biggrin:

Mind you, I needed a good laugh this Monday morning!

 

[Crucial]

You had me nodding my head until this sentence.....which then blew all your credibility away. :biggrin:

Mind you, I needed a good laugh this Monday morning!

I thought that comment may get a few chuckles from :aus:

You guys really do have a fascination with McCaw don't you. He's a 7. He infringes. Show me one that doesn't.

You guys just get peed off that Mr Pocock and Mr Hooper didn't get an invisibility cloak when the toys were handed out. epper:

While on the topic of captains (and openside flankers), did you notice CJ telling Hooper at one stage to start acting like a captain? I assume he was incessantly whining at CJ. The art of captaincy is still at an early stage with that boy.