Blowing the Bloomin' Whistle

[PaulDG]

Oh.. First thread on the New Forum...

Just thought I'd bring up something that's bothered me ever since I did U7s years ago and I still see whenever I wander over to the midi/minis or one of their coaches has a go at refereeing a junior game.

Blowing that bloomin whistle to start play!

The use of the whistle is mandated in the LoTG:

6.A.7 THE REFEREE’S WHISTLE

(a) The referee must carry a whistle and blow the whistle to indicate the beginning and end of each half of the match.
(b) The referee has the power to blow the whistle and stop play at any time.
(c) The referee must blow the whistle to indicate a score, or a touch down.
(d) The referee must blow the whistle to stop play because of an infringement or for an offence of foul play. When the referee cautions or sends off the offender, the referee must whistle a second time when the penalty kick or penalty try is awarded.
(e) The referee must blow the whistle when the ball has gone out of play, or when it has become unplayable, or when a penalty is awarded.
(f) The referee must blow the whistle when it would be dangerous to let play continue or when it is probable that a player has been seriously injured.

In other words, except for the start of the halves or when the clock is restarted after some other stoppage, the whistle stops play, it doesn't start it.

On another Forum we're discussing "play to the whistle" and meanwhile U7s-U12s in England are being schooled to "start to play when the whistle blows".

U11s can take quick penalties but they often don't because they are waiting for the ref to blow the whistle to say they can go - if they're unlucky enough to keep that ref/coach for a few more years, they'll still be waiting for permission by the time they're U14s. Same with line outs and restarts.

And if you discuss it with most mini/midi coaches? Well, the standard "that's what all the other teams we play against do.."

Well no it isn't. You can get this little thing right guys (and ladies); it's easy, it's correct and it's actually preparing your team to take some more responsibility when they get up to juniors.

(And it certainly isn't copying what they do on the telly. No TV ref blows the whistle to tell the Tigers they can throw in at the line out. They don't even do it that way in the round ball game!)

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

What new Forum?

Your post just popped up like normal.

Oh the junior mini midi tag U7 - U12 new forum - goddit! Sorry

 

[crossref]

you are right!
I refereed tag rugby a few weeks ago (helping out at a festival) and confused the kids no end by not blowing my whistle.
- they kept waiting
- I kept saying 'off you go then!'
nightmare... suddenly you find yourself thinking 'well perhaps I should blow it, just to keep things moving' :-(

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

School teachers who referee rugby (occasionally I hope) seem to like blowing the whistle at lineouts IME while they stand at the back. :sad:

 

[Pinky]

You are right. I say "go when you are ready" after a score - but then colts (u18) and old Fartonians thirds seem to need to be told this too

 

[TigerCraig]

We get it all the time - problem of being in a rugby league dominated area, with many kids playing both sports.

 

[Wolrabs]

I ref at U11 and I blow my whistle to start as I get fed up of telling the kids when to go. I have tried to tell the kids to 'go when they are ready', but they still like the whistle. Not in line with the laws, I know, but effective when dealing with U11's.

I also let kids take quick penalties at U11, but not when I am talking to the offending teams. I have seen some refs not allow this and let the offending team reset their defence.

Also at this age the kids usually take off from anywhere but the mark......They learn quick enough when they get dragged back.

The one thing that annoys me more than most at this age level, is the fact that a lot of the coaches/ref do not enforce the offside lines at scrums and lineouts. This is in terms of distance from either or breaching the offside.

Sean

 

[crossref]

your kids are going to get some mighty surprises at U13 as they encounter more and more quick penalties, QTs and quick restarts

 

[PaulDG]

I ref at U11 and I blow my whistle to start as I get fed up of telling the kids when to go. I have tried to tell the kids to 'go when they are ready', but they still like the whistle. Not in line with the laws, I know, but effective when dealing with U11's.

If you feel, as I assume you do feel, that part of your role when dealing with mini/midi age groups is to coach, then coach them properly. Tell them they can go.

I also let kids take quick penalties at U11

I should hope so. They're allowed to! (You do tell them this in your pre-match brief, don't you? Along with telling the FH & SH that the ball must leave their hands?)

but not when I am talking to the offending teams. I have seen some refs not allow this and let the offending team reset their defence.

Part of that is because there can be no quick taps at U9/10 and the "refs" don't know what they're doing. Part of it is because of confusion from not reading the Age Grade regs properly - a second quick tap cannot be taken (They really can't "take a second one quick", unlike U13 and up.)

Also at this age the kids usually take off from anywhere but the mark......They learn quick enough when they get dragged back.

Yep.

The one thing that annoys me more than most at this age level, is the fact that a lot of the coaches/ref do not enforce the offside lines at scrums and lineouts. This is in terms of distance from either or breaching the offside.

I disagree.

Not only is this far less important than what actually may be happening in the scrum/lineout, but you have to make some allowances for the fact that referees in this age group are most likely "learning their trade" too and, from the far more important aspect of safety, what's going on 5 or 7m back isn't important really.

What does p*ss me off is when the kids have clearly been coached to come forward at the scrum/lineout as soon as your back is turned. That's something the beginner referees in these age groups are frankly just not likely to notice (as you've noted) and, while there's always an element of "playing to the ref" in rugby, coaching 10 year olds to look for this sort of advantage is, IMHO, very cynical. (I first saw it happening at U9.)

And not only is it cynical, the kids don't understand that they've been coached to cheat and to understand the consequences of being caught - if you ping them for it, you can end up with a lot of upset kids and parents as they all believe they are doing the correct thing and they don't understand why this ref has given a penalty! (As, as you wrote, "the ref last week didn't think it was a problem..")

Oh and one other thing about line outs.

In my experience, it's normal and best to take up an "at the end of the gap" stance in mini/midi levels.

This gives the hooker something to aim for and means it's a lot more likely the ball will go reasonably straight.

From that position it's actually more difficult to see the backs coming up offside - and this is another reason why I feel coaching them to do it is really unacceptable.

The "ref" is doing their best to help the kids play properly by providing an aiming mark for the hooker and the coaches are coaching the kids to exploit this good nature.

I really don't have a lot of time for coaches like that.

 

[PaulDG]

your kids are going to get some mighty surprises at U13 as they encounter more and more quick penalties, QTs and quick restarts

And they'll also encounter referees who don't think QTs can be taken at U13, don't think quick penalties can be taken at U13, will still be back at the posts when the restart happens and didn't realise that junior players can choose to shorten the line out if they want.

 

[Phil E]

I disagree.

Not only is this far less important than what actually may be happening in the scrum/lineout, but you have to make some allowances for the fact that referees in this age group are most likely "learning their trade" too and, from the far more important aspect of safety, what's going on 5 or 7m back isn't important really.

....and I disagree with you.

The players are meant to be learning about passing and movement.

They aren't going to get a lot if you don't monitor the offside lines because there won't be anywhere for them to run, so more breakdowns instead of more running. More players on the floor, bigger safety risk.

If you are going to do the job, at least try to do it properly.

 

[crossref]

as so often in young junior games it really depends... there's a lot of difference between

- a 12 yr old new to rugby, clueless but keen, who has been stuck out on the wing where he can't do any harm, not sure what he's doing, who takes up position at a scrum standing level with the #8 (I had this last weekend. I did a bit of on-field coaching... 5m.. stand level from the FH.. that one is the FH. A PK would have been totally wrong, IMO as he was doing his best. (unless ghe kept doing it of course)

- and the other scenario where you check blindside winger, he is a perfect 5m back, he acknowledges your look, you turn toward the scrum, look over your shoulder again and see he's crept up 2m as soon as you turned your back.

You can easily see both these at u14..

 

[PaulDG]

....and I disagree with you.

The players are meant to be learning about passing and movement.

They aren't going to get a lot if you don't monitor the offside lines because there won't be anywhere for them to run, so more breakdowns instead of more running. More players on the floor, bigger safety risk.

If you are going to do the job, at least try to do it properly.

I see your point Phil, and I rather think I'm in the camp of noticing when they're coming forward.

But a lot of referees at these levels are not good enough for that and, if they're going to concentrate on something it should be the safety and across the line issues in the scrum/line out.

As I wrote, what annoys me is the cynical coaching the backs to come forward - with the lower skill of the referees, they're almost certain to get away with it and that's not, IMHO, "rugby"; it's cheating plain and simple.

 

[dave_clark]

what you call cheating, a coach may call gamesmanship. in their eyes, as long as they don't get caught all is ok.

i hated that attitude when i coached, and never encouraged my lads to cheat.

 

[Davet]

what you call cheating, a coach may call gamesmanship. in their eyes, as long as they don't get caught all is ok.

They may well use little euphamisms, but at the end of the day it results in penalties and cards, and is counter productive once they start to get decent refs.

 

[PaulDG]

They may well use little euphamisms, but at the end of the day it results in penalties and cards, and is counter productive once they start to get decent refs.

Thing is, at U12 and down, cards are not an option - we can only ask for players to be substituted when guilty of foul play and this is clearly only intended for foul play; those who drafted the Continuum (now absorbed into the Age Grade Regulations) were strongly of the view that mini/midi stages were about the "learning to train" and "training to train" phases of sport development.

The kids (and it's all supposed to be about them) are being let down by their coaches when this goes on - they're unknowingly being taught "gamesmanship", learning that winning is everything, when the point is supposed to be to keep them turning up every Sunday.

As Davet writes, eventually these kids, who are possibly used to winning everything because of the attitudes of their coaches which, if it includes sneaking up offside is likely to also include overplaying the "best" players, will meet stronger teams with genuinely better skills.

And they'll meet better refs who will ping them off the park.

At that point, they'll have a hissy fit and throw it all in, go back to the xbox and never be seen again.

 

[Phil E]

They may well use little euphamisms.

Only until puberty kicks in :wink:

 

[Dixie]

They may well use little euphamisms, but at the end of the day it results in penalties and cards, and is counter productive once they start to get decent refs.

the Rugby Club yesterday debated whether, at elite level, the team that cheats best, wins. Several players and coaches thought yes.

 

[Casey Bee]

the Rugby Club yesterday debated whether, at elite level, the team that cheats best, wins. Several players and coaches thought yes.

I think this is probably true. And there are a lot of people who will happily spout the wonderful 'ethos of rugby' while doing anything they can to chisel. Effectively if they can cheat and get away with it, they will, while maintaining a holier than thou persona.

 

[Davet]

Then they need smiting mightily.

I don't think that elite refs are blind to what's happening, and I suspect that many more penalties could be awarded - but that might create problems with the entertainment package.

However, increase the value of a PK to 4 points and after a successful kick at goal restart with a scrum at the mark to the side awarded the PK.

If cheating becomes a poor risk it will largely stop.