Boots

[spikeno10]

In our 2nd team match on Saturday about 15 mins before kick off the ref does the stud check. He does this by sight only and advises two players (both winners) that their boots are illegal as "they are football boots with football studs" and they "are too narrow", he goes on to advise "they should be rugby studs".

As a coach and referee (albeit only ELRA level) I tried briefly to discuss it with him but he was having none of it. Mad rush to find spare boots did somewhat mess up the final bits of preparation for the game.

I wanted to discuss this with him afterwards over a pint but he finished the game (which he took very well IMO) and got in his car and left.

My understanding of studs is that there cannot be a single stud at the toe of the boot and other studs must not be sharp but other than that all types are fine under the regulations.

I am well aware of individuals opinions on things like blades but I am just trying to see what is correct in the appropriate law.

 

[ckuxmann]

Easiest question to ask is are they molded, then they are most likely fine, excluding sharp edges.

Cody

 

[spikeno10]

These were screw in football studs.

 

[ckuxmann]

Screw in football studs? Do you have a pic, As far as I know as long as they are not sharp, dangerous, ect, and as long as they don't have a toe cleat, they are fine.

 

[Taff]

Easiest question to ask is are they molded ...

Excuse my ignorance, but what's the problem with "moulded" boots?

I thought any boot was ok (inc blades) provided they

• Didn't have a single toe stud or
• Didn't have sharp edges.

 

[crossref]

my understanding is the same as yours Spike

- single stud at the toe is illegal
- otherwise any type of stud goes - - ref is just looking for anything damaged/sharp/burred dangerous boots/studs.

The one thing that is ambiguous about the law is whether a boot that is designed legally with two toe studs but has one stud missing becomes illegal under the single toe stud ban.

On that issue opinions differ, but most people on this site (somewhat illogically IMO) think it's OK...

 

[ckuxmann]

Taff read past the ... then you get the answer of they should be fine except for sharp edges.

 

[Phil E]

Football studs are not as fat as rugby studs and come in several different lengths.
There is nothing in the regulations that says you cant use them.........unless they are dangerous (i.e. sharp)

If he was a society ref I would ask the society for clarification. This will (should) prompt them to bring it up at their monthly meeting.

Very bad form to just pack up and leave at the end. If you have to rush off, fine, but at least tell them "Sorry, cant stop".

 

[wilksy]

IRB Reg 12 - Players clothes. Simple diagram in there on min and max size of studs: 10mm min dia at tip, 13mm min dia at base of cone before flattens out to 20mm min. Stud to be no more than 21mm in length.

 

[OB..]

The one thing that is ambiguous about the law is whether a boot that is designed legally with two toe studs but has one stud missing becomes illegal under the single toe stud ban.

On that issue opinions differ, but most people on this site (somewhat illogically IMO) think it's OK...

The logic is that a designed single stud has no sole in front of it so in the probable toe-first contact it will do more damage than one if a pair, which is set further back so that the sole will be involved in any contact.

IRB Regulation 12

The worst-case scenario in any event will be when a single stud/cleat,
normally one toward the edge of the sole, makes contact alone.
[..]
Construcion and design. There shall not be a single stud/cleat at the toe of
the boot.

That seems to me to make it clear that the IRB is referring to a boot that is designed to have a single stud right at the toe. The regulation does not deal with missing studs.

It is, of course, appropriate to ask the player to replace any missing studs.

 

[crossref]

my logic is that what makes the single stud dangerous is that the force of the player stepping on you can be entirely transmitted via one stud, so it makes difference whether by design or by stud-missing.

however I accept this is not the common view, the common view is that it's OK.

In this instance the commonly held view is also the path of least resistance ... so it's easy to follow it and I don't worry about it.

 

[DrSTU]

Do you have a copy of the law book at your club?

If yes, why didn't you ask him to show you in the law book where it said this

If no, buy a copy for the club

In our 2nd team match on Saturday about 15 mins before kick off the ref does the stud check. He does this by sight only and advises two players (both winners) that their boots are illegal as "they are football boots with football studs" and they "are too narrow", he goes on to advise "they should be rugby studs".

As a coach and referee (albeit only ELRA level) I tried briefly to discuss it with him but he was having none of it. Mad rush to find spare boots did somewhat mess up the final bits of preparation for the game.

I wanted to discuss this with him afterwards over a pint but he finished the game (which he took very well IMO) and got in his car and left.

My understanding of studs is that there cannot be a single stud at the toe of the boot and other studs must not be sharp but other than that all types are fine under the regulations.

I am well aware of individuals opinions on things like blades but I am just trying to see what is correct in the appropriate law.

 

[spikeno10]

I do indeed have a copy of the law book - I tend to cart it around with me as much as anything to ensure I keep checking things for when I referee.
I wasn't going to argue with the referee before the game, his stance was that he was right and it wasn't going to be a good thing to question his authority before the game even started. Was a league game so didn't wish to put the boys behind the 8 ball before kick off.

If he'd have stayed and let me pay him a pint we could have talked about it. Even then I doubt I'd have got the law book out to ask him to show me. I think in this situation this was a pet hate of his (football boots) and this was his thing.

I have written to the society this morning to check my understanding and if I'm correct I'd hope they put a reminder out. If I'm wrong I'd hope they'd tell me so too.

 

[crossref]

I agree with you that it wasn't the right moment to get the Law book out -- but you'd need more than a Law Book anyway, you'd need a printout of regulation 12 as well
... and then also a ruler to measure the tips of the studs.

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

I played on Saturday and our ref went on about kite marked studs with the two lads next me (mine were ok) saying they were football studs - they were plastic with aluminium tips. He allowed the players to play but said they should change them.

He also didn't say anyting about CTPE at his brief but told us all how he wanted the back row to bind among a myriad of other stuff by which time I'd gone off to carry on warming up.

I never said anything as I would have had to announce "I'm a referee" which I think makes me look a bit of an arse. I never saw him after the game.

 

[Phil E]

I would have had to announce "I'm a referee" which I think makes me look a bit of an arse.

You don't need to say that, to be thought of as a bit of an arse :biggrin:

 

[Taff]

I do indeed have a copy of the law book - I tend to cart it around with me as much as anything to ensure I keep checking things for when I referee. I wasn't going to argue with the referee before the game, his stance was that he was right and it wasn't going to be a good thing to question his authority before the game even started. Was a league game so didn't wish to put the boys behind the 8 ball before kick off.

Ahhh but Mr Spike, you don't need to be argumentative. :biggrin: I would suggest: Ask the ref for a quiet word and say "Are you sure that's still the case ref? (You've sewn the seed of doubt) Do you mind if we check it - just to make sure we've got it right? (If it's wrong - you're not making him feel that he's the one that got it wrong). Once clarified, a polite "Thanks ref - you had me worried for a bit then. Do you want me to run touch for you?" may work wonders. You've got what you want, he's made the right decision without being pulled up and .... everyone's a winner.

... He also didn't say anyting about CTPE at his brief ...

He may have got round to it eventually, but

... by which time I'd gone off to carry on warming up.

remember? :biggrin:

 

[DrSTU]

No need to argue about it with him, just ask for clarification where in the law book that it states X. I wouldn't mind if someone said to me "can you just check that please?" Though the way you say "question his authority", makes me think that you know that he's a bit of a pompous one.

I'd ask the ref society for clarification on it since he dashed off at the end.

I do indeed have a copy of the law book - I tend to cart it around with me as much as anything to ensure I keep checking things for when I referee.
I wasn't going to argue with the referee before the game, his stance was that he was right and it wasn't going to be a good thing to question his authority before the game even started. Was a league game so didn't wish to put the boys behind the 8 ball before kick off.

If he'd have stayed and let me pay him a pint we could have talked about it. Even then I doubt I'd have got the law book out to ask him to show me. I think in this situation this was a pet hate of his (football boots) and this was his thing.

I have written to the society this morning to check my understanding and if I'm correct I'd hope they put a reminder out. If I'm wrong I'd hope they'd tell me so too.

 

[Dixie]

I think that in essence, we are saying (now that the specifications from Reg 12 have been included in the thread) that the ref was:

a) correct; and
b) could have managed it differently by noting the technical illegality, but allowing the boots on this occasion. Of course, the reality is that the player would then not change the studs and would present next week's ref with the same issue, so I personally have no issue with him standing by his guns. However, I do not enforce this regulation, not possessing a micrometer - and I don't think most refs do.

Spike, as a coach/manager, why not just get all your players to put proper aluminium rugby studs into any boot that will take them?

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

I used to have a stud gauge, are they still relevant?