Cadence at the scrummage

[Ian_Cook]

Feedback I have received from ITM Cup pre-season games is that the players like CTS and are finding compliance easier. Initially, it was "catching them out".

I spoke to a scrum coach about it a day or two back. One of his observations was that CTS didn't allow as much opportunity for front rows to "pre-load", with engagement coming straight after the "touch", resulting in less force at the hit.

 

[Drift]

Feedback I have received from ITM Cup pre-season games is that the players like CTS and are finding compliance easier. Initially, it was "catching them out".

I spoke to a scrum coach about it a day or two back. One of his observations was that CTS didn't allow as much opportunity for front rows to "pre-load", with engagement coming straight after the "touch", resulting in less force at the hit.

Until they figure out how to touch as well as "pre-load" and then the hit will be big again.

 

[Simon Thomas]

... anyway, let's see what Simon has to say.

I'm curious to know which will help with compliance - speeding up or slowing down?

exactly as Ian said above - the advice was to slow down to establish control. Majority opinion was that speeding up should not be used, as this is "chasing" the FR;s early timng and so ceding management control.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Until they figure out how to touch as well as "pre-load" and then the hit will be big again.

That will be a lot more difficult to achieve than you might think.

With CTPE, the long pause allowed both front rows to get themselves loaded for the hit. With the reduction of the pause to 1/3 of the time they had previously, it is going to be much more difficult for them to pre-load.

Think about a sprinter preparing to come out of the starting blocks, under the command sequence "On your marks, get set, Go!"

If the sequence is "On your marks"..................................."Get set"............................"Go!", the sprinter has plenty of time to load up after "get set" so that he can explode out of the blocks on "Go"

Reduce that sequence to "On your marks go!" and it suddenly becomes much more difficult to get the same explosive start, because there is no time to pre-load. This is true, even if the sprinter is expecting the shorter sequence


While I accept that, at the very top level, they may adapt and get to load up to some extent, they will bot be able to do so to the extent that they could under CTPE.

At the lower levels, front rows are even less likely to be able to do this.

 

[Womble]

When we had. Crouch and hold.......... Engage we loaded on the crouch. Teams wil now load on the crouch again. Think we will see teams setting early in the crouch position

 

[Ian_Cook]

When we had. Crouch and hold.......... Engage we loaded on the crouch. Teams wil now load on the crouch again. Think we will see teams setting early in the crouch position

Well, a good referee will manage that.

If I saw teams doing that, I would stand them up again.

"Guys, you crouch when I tell you to crouch, and not before".

 

[Davet]

When we had. Crouch and hold.......... Engage we loaded on the crouch. Teams wil now load on the crouch again. Think we will see teams setting early in the crouch position

But will the "touch" delay the load - the arm going out and then back just making the FR have to readjust as it comes back?

 

[Phil E]

Simon, what does the bit in red mean please?

It means.....we will have a consistent cadence as long as the front rows play the game. If they start playing silly buggers then the cadence "may" change, until they start complying.

I am only following the examples sent to us by the IRB

Which example is that then:

The Sith African?
The Fat Welshman?
The Authoritative Woman?

 

[MattB]

I asked a spectator to dictate the cadence for me epper:

This still cracks me up, easy winner of funniest thing I've read on this site

 

[Dickie E]

It means.....we will have a consistent cadence as long as the front rows play the game. If they start playing silly buggers then the cadence "may" change, until they start complying.

What does '"may" change' mean? I'll make it multiple choice to help you (which may help us, God willing):

1. gap between "crouch" and "touch" and "touch" and "set" will be longer
2. gap between "crouch" and "touch" and "touch" and "set" will be shorter
3. gap between "crouch" and "touch" will be shorter; gap between and "touch" and "set" will be longer
4. gap between "crouch" and "touch" will be longer; gap between and "touch" and "set" will be shorter
5. random variation amongst 1 through 4 above
6. something else all together

 

[OB..]

I think we are straining at a gnat.

You can't say "Touch" until both teams have crouched properly. Your timing can only be consistent if they are (or you delay too long).

You can't say "Set" until they have completed the Touch phase. Same comment as above.

If you do manage to be consistent, both teams will try to beat the call by just enough to gain an advantage, but not get penalised.

Only if both sides are relatively uncompetitive will you be able to maintain both control and cadence.

 

[Phil E]

What does '"may" change' mean?

It means I will manage it appropriate to the situation.

You are going to have to learn about management Dickie if you want to progress.

 

[Womble]

It means I will manage it appropriate to the situation.

You are going to have to learn about management Dickie if you want to progress.

So we can be consistantly inconsistant from your point of view! To say we will be consistant let's face it just aint going to work.

 

[Phil E]

So we can be consistantly inconsistant from your point of view! To say we will be consistant let's face it just aint going to work.

Thats not what I said.

I will be consistent as long as the players listen to what I say and respond when required.
If they fail to do that I reserve the right to stop being consistent.

 

[Womble]

Thats not what I said.

I will be consistent as long as the players listen to what I say and respond when required.
If they fail to do that I reserve the right to stop being consistent.

Exactly, so don't load the gun for the players and coaches!

 

[Phil E]

Exactly, so don't load the gun for the players and coaches!

The ball is in their court!

 

[Bryan]

I think we are straining at a gnat.

You can't say "Touch" until both teams have crouched properly. Your timing can only be consistent if they are (or you delay too long).

You can't say "Set" until they have completed the Touch phase. Same comment as above.

This.

I dont understand this "let's all be consistent with the timing" across all levels of the game. That's horseshit. It's doesnt play out that way. The timing of the next word is dependent upon the rate of compliance of the previous word. If you keep saying SET before the teams have pulled their hands back after the touch, you might be consistent, but you're also a moron.

The speed and timing of their actions will vary throughout the game. I'm also not keen on Ian's idea of them not crouching until you say crouch, but that's b/c I call the crouch as the 2nd rows have bound up (i.e. VERY early), so that the FRs crouch when they are ready. If they're still shuffling around post-"TOUCH", blow the whistle and get some semblance of control back.

My experience is that if I try to be consistent, I tend to switch to "autopilot" and then switch off from observing what's in front of me as I'm so focused on being consistent between the calls. So I dont. YMMV.

 

[The Fat]

This.

The timing of the next word is dependent upon the rate of compliance of the previous word.
.

This is the basis for the whole process.
The speed of the call is wholly dependent on checking off each stage of the setting of the scrum.
We are still under the CTPE cadence down here but I expect the process will not vary (only the calls and when certain things are complied with during the new cadence), once we move to CTS.
Currently the call process goes;
“Crouch” (check height, angle, alignment)
“Touch” (on shoulders and drop arms to check distance between FRs is OK)
“Pause” (check packs are steady, no #8 slingshot)
“Engage”(only on referees call with no tolerance for early go)
Post engagement, check binds, angle, height, offside etc

If, with the new cadence for example, you call "Touch" and one team fails to touch correctly or not at all, you don't move on to the next call until they do.

 

[Dickie E]

This.

I dont understand this "let's all be consistent with the timing" across all levels of the game. That's horseshit. It's doesnt play out that way. The timing of the next word is dependent upon the rate of compliance of the previous word. If you keep saying SET before the teams have pulled their hands back after the touch, you might be consistent, but you're also a moron.

I think the consistent cadence people mean (although they're having trouble wording it) is "as soon as they are crouched call 'touch' without delay" and "as soon as they have touched (and all are steady & straight) call 'set' without delay". The debate is around the delay after all are ready to go - consistent delay or variable delay?

 

[Phil E]

I think the consistent cadence people mean (although they're having trouble wording it) is "as soon as they are crouched call 'touch' without delay" and "as soon as they have touched (and all are steady & straight) call 'set' without delay". The debate is around the delay after all are ready to go - consistent delay or variable delay?

Not exactly.

I call Crouch (I then pause for a second while I check the items on Fats list).
I call Touch (I then pause for a second while I check the items on Fats list).
I all Set (I then pause for a second while I check the items on Fats list).
I step out of the SH's way so that he can put the ball in.

The pauses are the same length and the cadence is regular.

The length of the pause is always long enough for the checks to be carried out.
Providing I am happy with the checks at each scrum the cadence, checks and pauses will remain the same.

If at any point I am not happy (i.e. incorrect touch or no touch), I do not wait for them to comply, I blow my whistle and stand them up, I explain why we have stopped and then we start again, or I penalise them (ATP).

If we continually have to stand up, then I reserve the right to vary or slow down the cadence until compliance is reached (i.e. longer pauses or irregular cadence as required).
If they get fed up with resetting or giving away penalties and start to comply, then we will return to the original cadence at the top of the list.