[Law] Can this be a valid drop-goal ?

[CrouchTPEngage]

Quick one. Bit silly, but this one just got us talking in the pub last night.

From the laws : Definition.
Drop kick: The ball is dropped from the hand or hands to the ground and kicked as it rises from its first bounce.

Question.
Red 10 goes for a drop goal. He drops the ball from his hands. Red 9 who is standing next to him, swings his foot at the ball as it is rising and kicks it through the posts . Which of the following is right ?
(a) You award the drop goal as there is nothing in the laws which say it has to be dropped from the kicker's hands
(b) You judge accidental knock-on hence scrum to oppo.
(c) Something else ?

 

[crossref]

(b) knock on (and help yourself to Dick of The Day )

 

[chbg]

First thing that happened was a knock-on.

 

[CrouchTPEngage]

First thing that happened was a knock-on.

Isnt that the case for a normal drop-goal attempt then ?

 

[Flish]

Play on, unless ball went dead after the kick, certainly wouldn't award a drop goal as don't believe for a second that's what the players, spectators, or anyone watching would expect and not what the laws intended

 

[Dan_A]

Law 12

Definition: Knock-on
A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

It's knock on - the ball has touched another player before the original player can catch it??

 

[didds]

Law 12

Definition: Knock-on
A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

It's knock on - the ball has touched another player before the original player can catch it??

but the priginal player never catches it in the case of a DG "normally" executed.

FTR I'd expect a knock on call .

didds

 

[Flish]

This is all assuming the would be kicker has dropped it forward, the OP doesn’t say that, just dropped, which I take to mean straight down, so why would it be a knock on?

 

[OB..]

Common sense says that the dropper and the kicker must be the same person. Legalistic arguments about the actual wording of the law have no real place in discussing such issues because the laws are not written to that sort of standard.

You cannot take a dropkick without releasing the ball forward, which is treated as an exception to Law 12 (and perhaps ought to be noted there).

However what if a player fails to make contact in the kick? It is probably best to treat that as a knock-on if it is the kicker's fault, but if the miss is the result of a legitimate tackle? I find it wrong that an opponent could turn a legal action by you into an offence. YMMV.

 

[thepercy]

However what if a player fails to make contact in the kick? It is probably best to treat that as a knock-on if it is the kicker's fault, but if the miss is the result of a legitimate tackle? I find it wrong that an opponent could turn a legal action by you into an offence. YMMV.

So a tackle that causes a ball carrier to lose possession forward is somehow different from a tackle that causes a kicker to lose possession forward? Your sense of wrongness is odd in this case.

 

[ChrisR]

So a tackle that causes a ball carrier to lose possession forward is somehow different from a tackle that causes a kicker to lose possession forward? Your sense of wrongness is odd in this case.

In the attempted DK the ball has been released forward deliberately for the purpose of kicking (same for a punt), not so for a BC who is tackled.

As for the OP I'd call play on but not a goal. If the kicker just whiffed I'd say play-on.

Now it gets tricky if the ball goes through the 10s hands towards his own goal and the 12 kicks it through the posts on the rebound. Still not a goal for me.

 

[Taff]

Did the ball go forward from Red 10? If no, it's not a knock on. If it did go forward, then it IS a knock on.

If it didn't go forward and Red 9 kicked it through the posts, then just treat it like a punt and probably restart with a 22m DO or scrum back option.

 

[Dickie E]

Did the ball go forward from Red 10? If no, it's not a knock on. If it did go forward, then it IS a knock on.

If it didn't go forward and Red 9 kicked it through the posts, then just treat it like a punt and probably restart with a 22m DO or scrum back option.

Agree.

The extension to the OP may then be: Red drop the ball 15 metres from their own goal line and after its first bounce the ball is kicked through the sticks by Blue. Drop goal? You would think not

 

[Pegleg]

THe ball almost ceertainly went forward from the ball carrier. It is pretty near to impossible for it to be anything else. So is it a Valid DG or a knock on (deliberate or accidental!!)

I can't see how it is a valid DG there is a clear inference in the law that the ball carrier and kicker are one and the same.

So Knock on. But deliberate or not?

Clearly the ball carrier deliberately dropped (using the accepted understanding that it is a legitimate action when attempting a DG) it but would you give it as deliberate?

 

[CrouchTPEngage]

THe ball almost ceertainly went forward from the ball carrier. It is pretty near to impossible for it to be anything else. So is it a Valid DG or a knock on (deliberate or accidental!!)

I can't see how it is a valid DG there is a clear inference in the law that the ball carrier and kicker are one and the same.

So Knock on. But deliberate or not?

Clearly the ball carrier deliberately dropped (using the accepted understanding that it is a legitimate action when attempting a DG) it but would you give it as deliberate?

I doubt if he was deliberately attempting to knock on. It was a deliberate attempt at a drop goal and we assume, it never entered his head that he would knock-on. I think that there is a clear difference between the last defender preventing a try by sticking a hand out and patting the pass down ( what else was he expecting would happen ?) and the situation where a drop-kicker screws up his kick unintentionally.

I would give an accidental knock-on.

 

[didds]

Surely it would be totally OTT to turn a potential scoring opportunity into a PK for the opposition because of a slip up, or excellent defensive work/tackle?

didds

 

[Camquin]

What about a try line tackle followed by a double movement

 

[Pegleg]

I doubt if he was deliberately attempting to knock on. It was a deliberate attempt at a drop goal and we assume, it never entered his head that he would knock-on. I think that there is a clear difference between the last defender preventing a try by sticking a hand out and patting the pass down ( what else was he expecting would happen ?) and the situation where a drop-kicker screws up his kick unintentionally.

I would give an accidental knock-on.

I agree, Just playing devil's A.

 

[ChrisR]

The ball has to be projected forward in order to perform a drop-kick. If the kicker whiffs it, misses entirely, would you call it a knock-on? It's "Play on" for me when I can stop laughing. So the OP is the same and "No goal" follows.

 

[Mini P]

There could be 2 answers depending on where the ball is dropped.

If Red 10 is facing forward, the ball would naturally drop forward. Knock on only applies if
1. a player loses possession and
2. it goes forward and
3. it touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it

By Red 9 kicking the ball, Red 10 has lost possession and (I've assumed it has gone forward) it has been touched by another player. Knock on

However, if the ball carrier is facing the touchline, drops the ball in front of him (not going forward but going sidewards) and Red 9 kicks, then I say drop goal because

1. The ball has been dropped from the hands to the ground
2. It has been kicked as it rises