Cannon arm....

[didds]

S

And some open honesty as well…
“we, as Designated Members, are caught between a rock and a hard place when it comes to unintended consequences of ruling specifically either way.”

well that's just a cop out. isn't that their JOB to sort this out ?

 

[Volun-selected]

well that's just a cop out. isn't that their JOB to sort this out ?

More a case of the first time I’ve heard them admit that some of their decisions seem to open more questions than they solve.

 

[didds]

More a case of the first time I’ve heard them admit that some of their decisions seem to open more questions than they solve.

so what do they intend to do about it?
cos at the moment it looks like the square root of f4ck all!

 

[Balones]

Because it seems it is up to referees to decide with an inference being that it should be penalised etc, I will be suggesting at Ref Society level that the Society makes it clear to clubs that it is going to be penalised unless it is very clearly a momentary stabilisation action. Hopefully some degree of consistency will be achieved. Clubs visiting from other societies will be informed prior to the match.
At the level I operate at I will have to take guidance from the RFU but will canvas for the above interpretation.
Some posts from pre-season meetings about this matter would be appreciated I believe?

 

[didds]

a sensible approach.
the issue of course being neighbouring societies may have differing approaches - and neither is wrong, but cross border matches (eg above level 8) potentially end up with differing interpretations constantly.

 

[chbg]

Because it seems it is up to referees to decide with an inference being that it should be penalised etc, I will be suggesting at Ref Society level that the Society makes it clear to clubs that it is going to be penalised unless it is very clearly a momentary stabilisation action. Hopefully some degree of consistency will be achieved. Clubs visiting from other societies will be informed prior to the match.
At the level I operate at I will have to take guidance from the RFU but will canvas for the above interpretation.
Some posts from pre-season meetings about this matter would be appreciated I believe?

Do you think that this action will filter down into the lower levels? Won't it need some coaching first? Do they have time for that? Moreover, it's hard enough to spot on video, what chance will the community ref have? I feel that it is more likely to end in serious injury than a viable tactic.

 

[Phil E]

Saw something like this live for the first time yesterday, and it was clearly coached.
Running touch for England Counties U20.

Tackled player placed his hand on the ground in front of him, then used it to pivot on (bit like a basketball player pivoting on his standing foot), this enabled the tackled player to gain another metre almost every time he was tackled, ending up past his hand on the floor each time. More than one player doing it.

 

[crossref]

Saw something like this live for the first time yesterday, and it was clearly coached.
Running touch for England Counties U20.

Tackled player placed his hand on the ground in front of him, then used it to pivot on (bit like a basketball player pivoting on his standing foot), this enabled the tackled player to gain another metre almost every time he was tackled, ending up past his hand on the floor each time. More than one player doing it.

Interesting - how did the ref handle it? Did you have any discussion as a To3 on how to approach it?

 

[Phil E]

Because it was happening midfield, so not really material, and because this was a selection/development type game, the ref elected to just manage it. Which was the correct approach in my opinion (for this game).

 

[didds]

On the basis refs clearly allow rolling post tackle to gain an extra metre (and this is "all" levels from what i see ) I cant see that the use of the arm in the manner described by Phil as any different.
Though this use is different to that demoinstrated in the OP viseo which is all about height in preperation for being driven from behind - at a height that a tackle is almost impossible

 

[Volun-selected]

On the basis refs clearly allow rolling post tackle to gain an extra metre (and this is "all" levels from what i see ) I cant see that the use of the arm in the manner described by Phil as any different.
Though this use is different to that demoinstrated in the OP viseo which is all about height in preperation for being driven from behind - at a height that a tackle is almost impossible

At least with the roll it’s generally easy to identify a BC rolling once with momentum or a half-roll both of which are to get the ball on the attacking side. There is some gains in ground but that’s almost secondary to getting the ball available to play for a quick recycle by your team. On the other side you have the BC who could easily present the ball but instead takes an extra roll to gain ground and slow down the jackal. The former we allow, the latter we do not.

Maybe that’s how we treat this? If you’re tackled and as brought to ground you put an arm down, gain a little ground but the ball is available then play on. If you’re a bc stumbling from a tackle or fluffed pick and go and you put the arm down to momentarily support then play on. Put your hand down and then get a fellow player to launch you low then penalize for off feet?

The next question - is it foul play? So if bc sets up, arm on floor, then picks up the ball and then their teammate launches them and we have head to head contact with a defender who is as low as they can go … what next? Penalty against the:
Defender for not getting low enough?
BC for dangerous play by leading with their head?
Launching teammate for driving teammate into head on head collision?
Red card?

Or accept two players on the deck bleeding and maybe out cold as just a “rugby incident”?

I’d need to see the play that @Phil E observed but as described I’m generally going to be ok with that. BC with the ball trying to dive or drive a gap to ground a try, again generally going to be ok.

But the deliberate setup with BC then launched forward, I’m having a hard time accepting that the more I think about it - and maybe that’s what the whole SARU move was about? WR were unlikely to rule specifics this close but maybe they just wanted all the refs chatting about it before they face Ireland?

Of course, I still need to be able to spot it in the first place as I have no TMO or refs on touch for me.

 

[Dickie E]

Because it was happening midfield, so not really material, and because this was a selection/development type game, the ref elected to just manage it. Which was the correct approach in my opinion (for this game).

What does "just manage it" mean in this context?

 

[Phil E]

What does "just manage it" mean in this context?

Explain not penalise.

 

[crossref]

Explain not penalise.

Although it sounds like that didn't work from your description!

 

[Balones]

Do you think that this action will filter down into the lower levels? Won't it need some coaching first? Do they have time for that? Moreover, it's hard enough to spot on video, what chance will the community ref have? I feel that it is more likely to end in serious injury than a viable tactic.

Yes. Everything else seems to filter down. Doesn’t it?

 

[didds]

Yes. Everything else seems to filter down. Doesn’t it?

agreed. Not always coached though - there are certain aspects/things/tactics/techniaues I have never coached for various reasons, including nolt having time for them as other areas needed prioritising) but that hasnt stopped players doing them off their own bat

I doubt I am alone.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

Explain not penalise.

How many times are you expected to explain that it is illegal?

 

[Phil E]

How many times are you expected to explain that it is illegal?

Hey, I was the AR. I pointed it out to the Referee.
What he does with that information is up to him.
He decided in the context of this game it wasn't important.

Don't shoot he messenger!

 

[SimonSmith]

Hey, I was the AR. I pointed it out to the Referee.
What he does with that information is up to him.
He decided in the context of this game it wasn't important.

Don't shoot he messenger!

Did you not watch 300?

 

[Dickie E]

Hey, I was the AR. I pointed it out to the Referee.
What he does with that information is up to him.
He decided in the context of this game it wasn't important.

Don't shoot he messenger!

I'm still curious what the ref said. Was it something like "lads, the designated members aren't really sure if its legal or not, so the next ref may or may not ping it"?