choke tackle near goal line

[thepercy]

Red v blue. 2 Blue defenders grasp, stop forward momentum and hold up red ball carrier a few meters short of the goal line. Seeing this, red support players bind on and drive the now maul into in-goal. Whilst red ball carrier still held up, additional blue players arrive and push the maul-like group out of in-goal. What's your call?

 

[crossref]

do nothing - wait and see what happens....

(great question!)

if nothing happens, and ball isn't going to come out, or if it collapses and ball is trapped then turnover, scrum to defenders.

 

[Taff]

... Whilst red ball carrier still held up, additional blue players arrive and push the maul-like group out of in-goal. What's your call?

How long was the BC held up, before being pushed out of in-goal?

And where was he pushed? Ie over the DBL, back into the FoP? Over TiG?

 

[SimonSmith]

do nothing - wait and see what happens....

(great question!)

if nothing happens, and ball isn't going to come out, or if it collapses and ball is trapped then turnover, scrum to defenders.

Do you perhaps mean 'held up in goal, scrum 5 attacking'?

 

[Dickie E]

if it see-sawed into in-goal then back into FoP I would play on. But that would need to happen quickly. If there was a distinct pause in-goal I would blow it up, scrum to attacking team.

 

[menace]

Just putting it out there.

But a maul end successfully when the ball is over the in-goal line....so if it's pushed back (even quickly as dickie suggests) into FOP is that now obstruction if the ball is not with the front person? And even if the ball is with the front player, can a maul instantaneously reform like that?

Edit: in regard to OP...I'd be thinking held up. Scrum attacking.

 

[Dickie E]

But a maul end successfully when the ball is over the in-goal line....so if it's pushed back (even quickly as dickie suggests) into FOP is that now obstruction if the ball is not with the front person?

Fair question

 

[talbazar]

if nothing happens, and ball isn't going to come out, or if it collapses and ball is trapped then turnover, scrum to defenders.

But a maul end successfully when the ball is over the in-goal line....so if it's pushed back (even quickly as dickie suggests) into FOP is that now obstruction if the ball is not with the front person?

In both this case I would give a scrum defending team (using the accidental offside law for Menace's point).

But then it raises the point where:
Blue pushes the was-maul back in the FoP and then Red can play the ball...
Would you play on (saying the maul was instantly re-created and they got the ball out) or would you blow the whistle for accidental offside as soon as the ball goes back in the FoP?

I think I'd go for the accidental offside...

What do you think?
Pierre.

 

[The Fat]

Maul ends when in-goal, obviously not getting a grounding so held up. Peep! Attacking scrum 5.
Keeps everything simple.

What are you going to do if the "now it's a maul", "now it's not", "now it's a maul", "now it's not", happens two or three times?

The accidental offside scrum ruling is specific to a non-contested "maul" at a line out. I don't think we should start using it for mauls created in general play.

 

[crossref]

I don't see how you can give an attacking scrum for held up in goal, when the defenders have pushed it back out of the in goal....

 

[irishref]

Maul formed by red bringing the ball in. Scrum will be for blue if maul ends unsuccessfully.

Moving into the in-goal is tricky - the language used in law 17 isn't clear - it says the maul has ended successfully but the ball is still not playable.

I guess letter of the law would require a further application of a different law:

Maul over successfully, no grounding thus held-up and restart with Red (attacking) scrum.

 

[Browner]

What a great question,

Do the defenders get rewarded for preventing a grounding and return-shoving the maul ( that supposedly ended, but still appeared to physically exist) by getting the feed at the scrum5?

Or

Does the theoretical "maul ending succesfully" (of L17.5) ...[despite it kinda continuing in reality] retain the attackers the feed at the scrum5, & what would happen if the defensive effort pushed this ' already ended earlier' maul back up to say 15m from the goal line ....what would you do then ???? Say it ended back in the goal area and walk back to set a scrum 5? That would look awful.

On balance I don't think L17.5 (part 3) intended to deal with the HokeyCokeyMaul, so I'd say the defence should get the reward for their maul shove efforts.

So, for me, taken into maul by Red =
* if deemed unplayable whilst within the Goal area - scrum 5 red
* if deemed unplayable after it was shoved back out - scrum 5 blue ( or at 6m/7/8/9...15m ceased moving point )

Personally , watching a choke tackle metamorph into a 'uncollapsed' maul & then receive 'hokeycokey goal line shoving' would be an enjoyable watch .......until it remained static for 5 seconds after UI was announced , now I'm bored - so let's scrum

 

[didds]

I don't see how you can give an attacking scrum for held up in goal, when the defenders have pushed it back out of the in goal....

presumably it gets blown before the maul-thing gets pushed back out.

didds

 

[crossref]

presumably it gets blown before the maul-thing gets pushed back out.

didds

... yes, that would be best.
... but that wasn't the scenario given.

 

[SimonSmith]

It was in a post underneath the OP

 

[buff]

I would not let it get to the original scenario. As soon as I see it start to move back to the FoP I would whistle it and give the scrum to the attacking team.
However, in the OP's scenario, I would go defensive scrum. Realistically, the ball is going to be buried in the maul somewhere. That would make it difficult to sell accidental offside. If can't find the ball, how can I tell who may be in front of it?
The key to solving this problem is not to let it occur in the first place.

 

[Pegleg]

The maul's gone into in-goal so it's over. It can't come out again because it does not exist (in law). So we have law 20.4 (d).

Although once the ball goes into in-goal, if the ball does not get grounded pretty sharpish, blow and avoid all the nonsense.

 

[crossref]

Although once the ball goes into in-goal, if the ball does not get grounded pretty sharpish, blow and avoid all the nonsense.

which is the point, isn't it -- once the ball goes into the ingoal you are are going to wait a small amount of time for it to be grounded. Perhaps 3 or 4 seconds ? Whatever ... Normally what happens is that either the ball is grounded, or it isn't and you blow for held up -- but what if ... during that short time .... what if the defenders unxepectedly and with one sudden heave, push the ball back into the FoP. Then what?

That's the question

 

[Pegleg]

which is the point, isn't it -- once the ball goes into the ingoal you are are going to wait a small amount of time for it to be grounded. Perhaps 3 or 4 seconds ? Whatever ... Normally what happens is that either the ball is grounded, or it isn't and you blow for held up -- but what if ... during that short time .... what if the defenders unxepectedly and with one sudden heave, push the ball back into the FoP. Then what?

That's the question

I've answered that one in the first paragraph!

The maul's gone into in-goal so it's over. It can't come out again because it does not exist (in law). So we have law 20.4 (d).

The point of the second paragraph was to say that as a ref we should not let it get that far. As per this post:

The key to solving this problem is not to let it occur in the first place.

 

[OB..]

Does pushing the whatever-it-is back into the FoP turn it into a maul? That seems to be the only option, but who took the ball in? Over to 17.6 (c)[LAWS][FONT=fs_blakeregular]If the referee cannot decide which team had possession, the team moving forward before the maul stopped throws in the ball. [/FONT][/LAWS] That would have to be the defending team.

The law does not really deal with the matter. I think the simple, common sense decision is to award the scrum to the defending side, just as if the action had all taken place in the field of play..