Coaching the game

[Womble]

With the new season allmost apon us how do we feel the level of coaching in the game ( at all levels) is going? I've noticed in the past 4 to 5 years many ex prem players going into coaching. They seem to be fast tracked through their level 3 and then go out and get coaching appointments at clubs. Fair play to them, My point and yes it's only an opinion but they all seem to have been in the same class and all have the same ideas about how the game is played. Do any of them think outside the box and look for new ideas? or are we heading for a some what "fire meets fire" or" defence rules" type of game.

 

[oldman]

Womble, I am unable to comment on the higher levels of the game as either a referee or player, but I do watch level 4 games. It appears to me that many coaches do not know either the laws or are able to think outside the box. The RFU coaching structure is such the there is a plan A but no plan B. Many coaches try and dictate what their players do and activly discourage players to try anything that has not been planned and practised. i.e. in this part of the field we do this, players being discouraged from playing what is front of them. Also most coaches do not understand the concepts of materiality or conceptual judgement. They want the opposition penalised even if the offence has no effect on then game, and they expect all referees to do exactly the same in similar circumstances. As jobs are at stake risks must not be taken.
Perhaps we have a national league coach as a member who can add to the discussion?

 

[didds]

The RFU coaching structure is such the there is a plan A but no plan B. Many coaches try and dictate what their players do and activly discourage players to try anything that has not been planned and practised. i.e. in this part of the field we do this, players being discouraged from playing what is front of them.

Which is rather interesting because as someone who has reached half way thru a level 3 (unlikely to complete cos i ain't good enough) that coaching approach is really quite OPPOSITE of what we were expected to demonstrate on that L3, and is a totally opposite of what is expected at level 2.

Of course, these "expectations" fly in the face of the realities of professional coaches. If your livelihood, reputation and future is on the line, why would entrust 15 players to doing something you are not controlling 100%?

At non-pro levels I can only suggest the antics of professional soccer managers and hollywood team coaches are the blueprint for many amateur coaches.

Meanwhile hera's one coach that tried desperately to provide players with the opportunity to think for themselves and play rugby heads up yadda yadda yadda ... but gave up when it was clear the players didn't want it/buy into it.

Youths and children are so much more fun to coach.



didds

 

[Coach Klein]

Some really interesting points.

I totally agree at the "elite" level that players are ordered to do certain things in certain areas. As you say Didds, why allow the players to control things when it's YOUR OWN head on the block?

This has the knock on effect lower down when these "elite" players then become coaches at national league clubs. Womble you are correct, very little "outside the box" thinking. It infuriates me. As does the fact that coaches (even ex-pro players) don't know the laws inside out.

However, at national 3 we simply don't have the option of dropping players because they don't carry out "team orders" because we don't have the same talent pool to replace them with another player of the same quality usually. (not that I would ever operate like that anyway)

 

[Womble]

I don't subscribe to "it's my head on the block" attitude, there are too many variables in the game, ( us refs being a big one!) 15+ players being the other, Refereed a game last year where at half time a coach came up to me and enquired why the penalty count was 4 to 0 against his team, I pointed out that I had played advantage on 5 of his teams penalties and that his team had scored try's from 4 of them, his team had scored 28 points. His answer " I don't want advantage I want the penalty" I was lost for words ! Yes an ex elite player coaching.

 

[Coach Klein]

I don't subscribe to "it's my head on the block" attitude, there are too many variables in the game, ( us refs being a big one!) 15+ players being the other, Refereed a game last year where at half time a coach came up to me and enquired why the penalty count was 4 to 0 against his team, I pointed out that I had played advantage on 5 of his teams penalties and that his team had scored try's from 4 of them, his team had scored 28 points. His answer " I don't want advantage I want the penalty" I was lost for words ! Yes an ex elite player coaching.

unfortunately at the fully professional level, rugby club chairman (and investors) don't give a sh*t about the variables!

That coach's idea is crazy! I would be all over you like a rash and saying "Great reffing to allow us all those advantage opportunities by the way." Then wink and smile, and say "Just don't forget that they are trying to offend, though! No seriously, sir, thank you."

 

[Womble]

The variables will allways be there, you can either enhance them or fight them, it's not rocket sience which clubs do which and why they are top of the stack!

 

[andyscott]

His answer " I don't want advantage I want the penalty" I was lost for words ! Yes an ex elite player coaching.

Chuffing knobber.

I would have replied, well if you were the captain, you would get that choice, but you are not, so you dont! Smile and walk away

 

[Simon Thomas]

Womble - a very interesting question and informative replies from Olman, Didds and Coach Klien.

I am a Match Observer at L5 in SW Group and also a L2 Coach (I only do some specific kicking and tactical awareness pre-season work with my L9 club's half-backs).

Over the last few seasons I have seen a wide range of coaching abilities, awareness and styles at L5.

The DoR's and Head Coaches are usually older & experienced, with the newer coaches brought in as forwards or backs specialists to learn their trade. The best combination has been at Bournemouth with RFU Level 4 DoR Dave Dunn and Coach Tim Collier (ex-Premiership player), and Jason & his team at Chinnor developed a good side. We will see how both clubs do at L4 next sesaon after their promotion. Even relegated Newbury had good coaching support for a young inexperienced team and club with no resources to use to gain playing strength & experience.

What I have noticed with clubs at L5 is that the coaches mostly establish a game plan and style based on the squad and key players they have, and their perceived place in the pecking order, or season history to date, determining each match's general tactics. With specific (and talented playmakers) at half backs, flanker, centre or full back some clubs will play off the cuff, or adopt a Plan B, but mainly I see a lot of repetitive structure and phases rolled out each week, with most sides risk averse and defence focussed.

The main discussion areas I have post match with coaches are the referee's management of the breakdown (where 50% + of PKs occur each week), management of offside lines at ruck & maul, management of scrums (where that coach may perceive his stronger pack was dis-advantaged) and application of advantage (open-mouthed at your half-time coach's comments !).

One of the issues we all face is that the Elite Game (now including Championship) is different to the Community one, especially L5 downwards. Ex-Premiership players becoming lower level coaches will quickly discover that their players are just not equipped physically, nor in rugby awareness, nor with personal / unit skills derived from a full-time porofessional player's routine.

I played L6-8 for my home town club in my late 30s with two high quality coaches (Alistair McHarg and Owen Jarrett) who turned a L8 side into a L6 one. Two of us had played 'first class' and so made on-pitch tactical choices when necessary but mainly the success was built on a clear structure, asking the players to do what they were capable of, and making sure defensive drills were tight. Having Margot Wells as our fitness coach helped a lot too, ensuring we played all 80 minutes - at those levels too many sides are not fit enough to do that and so ta score or two in the last ten minutes were common, or we could close out a match defensively as physically we could cope.

With the coming together of Coaching and Refereeing Depts into a single Develoment Department at RFU, hopefully we will see better integration between Coaches and Match Officials, as we both need to learn from each other.

 

[andyscott]

With the coming together of Coaching and Refereeing Depts into a single Develoment Department at RFU, hopefully we will see better integration between Coaches and Match Officials, as we both need to learn from each other.

Thats the first positive comment I have heard regarding the reshuffle

 

[Simon Thomas]

Andy - my attitude to life, business, sport etc is if I can't influence something, then look at it as a positive opportunity and work to make it better.

 

[dave_clark]

absolutely. there are no problems, only challenges.

 

[Davet]

absolutely. There are no problems, only opportunities.

ftfy

 

[andyscott]

Andy - my attitude to life, business, sport etc is if I can't influence something, then look at it as a positive opportunity and work to make it better.

Its just quite refreshing as most are dead against the move. I am not fussed one way or t'other, but just keeping an open mind.

 

[Simon Thomas]

Andy - it is a done deal so there is no point "most being dead against the move".

Over the last month of reaction and feedback by the 'volunteers', my view was (and still is) that many elements of the re-structure are badly thought through and in some cases potentially damaging to Match Officiating, especially at L5 & 6. I have communicated those views to both the past and new RFU 'professisonal Management and my colleagues in the Match Officiating voluntary sector.

What we now have to do work with the new structure and the RFU management team, and both the old Refs Dept and old Coaching Dept staffers who have been succcesful in getting one of the new roles to create and leverage the best development resources and opportunities that we can for aspiring English referees on the Pathway through Feds, Group and onto Panel. Plus of course creating better training, development and overall match officiating environment for the bulk of our referees who are in our 45 or so Societies.

And above all deliver high quality match officials for our "clients" across all levels of the Game.