Coin Toss Options

[rubyref]

This is a bit of an obvious one, but I've got myself muddled and the "vice versa" comment in Law 6.A.3 isn't clear to me.

Winner of toss chooses end to play from so opposition have to kickoff. Happy with that.

What if winner of toss chooses to kick off. Do opposition get to choose ends? I suspect they do otherwise how is it decided.

 

[Simon Thomas]

Yes - choice is either we will start this end (other side will kick off) or we will kick off (other side choose ends).

If you get "we will receive sir", then ask "standing in which half"

 

[ckuxmann]

Can't they Defer?

 

[Simon Thomas]

why defer, delay, postpone, etc ? perhaps maybe a young player needs to ask coach / manager (fair enough), or is gale force wind going to die down in next hour - but if toss done 30 minutes or less before kick off make the choice then.

Do the toss, winner makes the decision, loser gets the other option - simples

 

[ckuxmann]

Defer to the other team.

 

[Simon Thomas]

why ? they win the toss, they make their choice - end or kick.

that is what the Law says, easy enough to apply it.

 

[andyscott]

I make them choose at time of toss, some want to wait to decide they get told no, choose now. Usually and hour before kick off.

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

I make them choose at time of toss, some want to wait to decide they get told no, choose now. Usually and hour before kick off.

You're sooooooo masterful!

 

[KML1]

Yes - choice is either we will start this end (other side will kick off) or we will kick off (other side choose ends).
"

This has always been a confusion for me as well rubyref.

I don't get the line ST uses - Surely if the winning side chooses ends, then the other side should have the option to receive not just kick off, just like you give the choice of ends in the other scenario.

99% of choices I hear are to choose an end (linked to wind, slope, fanbase etc) and I don't give other side an option.

I don't read the law as clear cut as others do in this regard. But what do I know...

 

[KML1]

I make them choose at time of toss, some want to wait to decide they get told no, choose now. Usually and hour before kick off.

A lot can change in an hour. Why put them under undue pressure to decide on your terms. What harm can it do to say - "let me know at least 15 mins before kick off". Keeps people on-side and doesn't give any negative impression to the two sets of players.

Just a thought Andy..

 

[Taff]

... choice is either we will start this end (other side will kick off) or we will kick off (other side choose ends). If you get "we will receive sir", then ask "standing in which half"

This has always been a confusion for me as well rubyref. I don't get the line ST uses - Surely if the winning side chooses ends, then the other side should have the option to receive not just kick off, just like you give the choice of ends in the other scenario.

Well I'm so glad it isn't just me then.

If the winning captain can choose to "receive" and choose "standing in which half" he has effectively made 2 choices. He has chosen which way they are attacking and indirectly he's chosen which team kicks off as well.

KML1s post strikes me as being fairer, ie the captain who wins the toss has first choice (kick off or end) then after he's decided, the captain who lost the toss can choose whether they want to kick off or not. For all we know, perhaps he would rather receive than kick off.

 

[OB..]

I don't read the law as clear cut as others do in this regard.

Law 6.A.3 (a) [...] The winner of the toss decides whether to kick off or to choose an end. If the winner of the toss decides to choose an end, the opponents must kick off, and vice versa.

I find the word "must" pretty conclusive.

I agree I don't see much point in restricting the choice in this way.

 

[ddjamo]

here we go again.....

 

[Simon Thomas]

the Law is clear as OB (and I thought I had too) describes, and use of the word "must" is clear.

However I am not necessarily in agreement, and having the option to either kick or receive the kick seems to be pretty fair if the toss winner decides to choose ends, but that isn't how Law 6.A.3 (a) is written.

 

[Phil E]

I can't believe we are debating this.....................again

There are two choices:

1. Kick
2. Choose an end

Winner chooses 1 or 2, loser get the other.

Receiving is not a choice. The word receive does not appear in the relevant law.

 

[Dixie]

I don't read the law as clear cut as others do in this regard. But what do I know...

Law 6.A.3 (a) [...] The winner of the toss decides whether to kick off or to choose an end. If the winner of the toss decides to choose an end, the opponents must kick off, and vice versa.

I find the word "must" pretty conclusive.

I see this as pretty clear-cut - but I do see where KML1 and his crowd is coming from. The winner decides whether to kick off. If he decides not to ("we'll receive, Sir, please"), then the die is cast and the other lot gets the choice of ends. In other words, the decision NOT to kick off is part of the decision WHETHER to kick off, not a decision on a choice of ends.

While this is not the interpreation I put on it, I'm comfortable that it is a perfectly reasonable interpretation in its own right. KML1, have you ever raised this among your peers? What is the expectation at the higher end of the playing world?

 

[OB..]

"If the winner of the toss decides to choose an end, the opponents must kick off"

I don't see how anybody can get round that.

I would be quite happy to see the law re-written, but until it is ...

I don't make a big thing of it, but I find many referees are not aware of this particular subtlety. I therefore point out that as they progress, they are likely to get marked down for such things.

 

[andyscott]

A lot can change in an hour. Why put them under undue pressure to decide on your terms. What harm can it do to say - "let me know at least 15 mins before kick off". Keeps people on-side and doesn't give any negative impression to the two sets of players.

Just a thought Andy..

Well I just find it works, only the odd captain that wants to be awkward.

It's something to bear in mind though, thanks.

 

[Dixie]

"If the winner of the toss decides to choose an end, the opponents must kick off"

I don't see how anybody can get round that.

Why do you feel that a person who decides whether to kick off ("We'll not kick off, ref") has made a choice of ends rather than a choice of whether to kick off?

 

[Davet]

The winner of the toss decides whetherto a) kick off or b) to choose an end.

So the winner has 2 options
either Kick Off OR Choose an end.

Whether to kick off is not the choice - it is whether to kick off OR choose ends

He does not get any other choice, if he says "we'll recieve" then that's not an option - he doesn't get to decide to recieve.

Whilst the reply of "which end will you receive the ball in?" is an understandable one - it's not valid.

The response is - "No. Either decide to kick off, or decide which end you will have"

All of which is obviated by the initial question: after the coin toss - simply turn to the winner and say "Will you kick off, or choose ends?"

Job done - all you then need is a simple answer to that simple question.

If the winner of the toss decides to choose an end, the opponents must kick off; and if he chooses to kick off then the opposition select the the ends.