Controversial Ending

[Waspsfan]

http://www.pitchero.com/clubs/oldpatesians/s/news-110830.html?news_id=1305009

Check out the final paragraph of this report from yesterday. Thoughts?

Should you ever allow a retake because of the crowd?
Should you ever overrule both TJs? (presumably one from each team)

Do we think error 1 led to error 2 - sadly seems like critical incidents all round.

And I thought my game had gone badly yesterday.

 

[DrSTU]

Level 5 game by my reckoning?

Sounds like an absolute clanger.

To answer the questions, no I'd never re-allow a kick for heckling from the crowd.
No I'd never over-ride the TJs at this level unless it was so blatantly obvious that it had missed.

God knows is error 1 led to 2 but error 1 shouldn't have occurred in my books.

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

:wow:

 

[OB..]

Intriguing! I know the writer well, so will be interested to hear his views in more detail.

 

[Dickie E]

Should you ever overrule both TJs? (presumably one from each team)

I'm guessing that the kick went over the top of the post in which case the ref has only overuled one TJ (the other TJ would have had no view so was only supporting his colleague as convention dictates).

 

[Blackberry]

A management tool I learned is when you see a conversion heading for what will be a close call blatantly stick out your arm like an aiming rod towards the ball in flight and closely (and publicly) monitor the ball's path helping you to sell the correct call if the TJ's get it wrong.

 

[crossref]

You have to suspect that he regretted letting the kicker have a second attempt, and put things right by disallowing the kick

 

[Pegleg]

This sort of links with thread about the laser being shone in the face of the Aussie kicker yesterday. When do you (or when should the laws) allow a retake?


A fan / group of fans shines light in the kickers face. Yes or no?

A fan / group of fans barrack the kicker. Yes or no?

Would it be different if you could ID the offender so you knew he was from the side that had given the PK away?

What if it was a member staff from of the club that had given the PK away?

 

[menace]

This sort of links with thread about the laser being shone in the face of the Aussie kicker yesterday. When do you (or when should the laws) allow a retake?


A fan / group of fans shines light in the kickers face. Yes or no?

A fan / group of fans barrack the kicker. Yes or no?

Would it be different if you could ID the offender so you knew he was from the side that had given the PK away?

What if it was a member staff from of the club that had given the PK away?

Current law says you can't take a rekick from spectator's influences....but as I wrote in the other thread I think IRB should introduce a law that says obvious borking by lazer lights should allow a rekick (and no charging). I think that will soon stop it and have the crowd turning on the lazer pointerer!

 

[Pegleg]

Hence my wording!

"When do you (or when should the laws) allow a retake?" Incidentally current law does not say you can't allow a retake nor does is say you can.

 

[menace]

Sorry...misunderstood you. Are you asking if there is a law that allows a retake?

I let them take a rekick when this happens.

[LAWS]9.B.3 The opposing team
(a) All players of the opposing team must retire to their goal line and must not overstep that line until the kicker begins the approach to kick or starts to kick. When the kicker does this, they may charge or jump to prevent a goal but must not be physically supported by other players in these actions.
(b)When the ball falls over after the kicker began the approach to kick, the opponents may continue to charge.
(c)A defending team must not shout during a kick at goal.
Sanction: (a)-(c) If the opposing team infringes but the kick is successful, the goal stands.

If the kick is unsuccessful, the kicker may take another kick and the opposing team is not allowed to charge.


When another kick is allowed, the kicker may repeat all the preparations. The kicker may change the type of kick.[/LAWS]

 

[crossref]

that's an action by the players.

you can't have retakes following actions from crowd -- If that started you'd find suppoprters of the player making a noise, by arrangement, to give him two bites at the cherry.

 

[Phil E]

Of course the writers version may be different to the referees.
He had no idea of what the referee was thinking when he made the decision to retake the kick, we only have his guess as to why the referee did it.
It may have had nothing to do with the crowd?

 

[menace]

that's an action by the players.

you can't have retakes following actions from crowd -- If that started you'd find suppoprters of the player making a noise, by arrangement, to give him two bites at the cherry.

Precisely crossref...I provided that as I was unsure what pegleg was asking.

Ie

This sort of links with thread about the laser being shone in the face of the Aussie kicker yesterday. When do you (or when should the laws) allow a retake?


A fan / group of fans shines light in the kickers face. Yes or no?

A fan / group of fans barrack the kicker. Yes or no?

Would it be different if you could ID the offender so you knew he was from the side that had given the PK away?

What if it was a member staff from of the club that had given the PK away?

Current law says you can't take a rekick from spectator's influences....but as I wrote in the other thread I think IRB should introduce a law that says obvious borking by lazer lights should allow a rekick (and no charging). I think that will soon stop it and have the crowd turning on the lazer pointerer!

Hence my wording!

"When do you (or when should the laws) allow a retake?" Incidentally current law does not say you can't allow a retake nor does is say you can.

 

[Browner]

I'm not commenting on the OP level match, but I've overridden a conversion from a poorly positioned TJ signalling ' good kick' much to his annoyance.

As much as I dislike it, bonafide crowd noise ( as opposed to player/replacement/coaching team/water carrier distraction tactics ) have to be ignored by the referee.

 

[crossref]

I have never had cause to override BOTH TJs, but I have faced a situation where there was only one TJ, and I overruled him, and a number of occasions when the two TJs disagree (or at least provide different signals) so I have called it.

It would be pretty unusual, I think, to be sure enough in what you saw to override both TJs.

 

[Simon Thomas]

The report is not factually correct about some things, especially that one TJ flag was up / one down, ref was in perfect position to see flight of ball over top and to one side of post.

In law the referee was incorrect to order retake, but in culture & ethos of rugby many stated in the clubhouse he made the right decision to order a re-take. The "shout" came from a match active member of the non-kicking club, and immediately afterwards the skipper apologised on his behalf for his behaviour.

The outcome was no change to the final result.

 

[Phil E]

The report is not factually correct about some things, especially that one TJ flag was up / one down, ref was in perfect position to see flight of ball over top and to one side of post.

In law the referee was incorrect to order retake, but in culture & ethos of rugby many stated in the clubhouse he made the right decision to order a re-take. The "shout" came from a match active member of the non-kicking club, and immediately afterwards the skipper apologised on his behalf for his behaviour.

The outcome was no change to the final result.

Simon

What do you mean by "match active member"???

If it was a member of the defending team that shouted (or that the ref thought had shouted) then he was correct.

[LAWS]9.B.3
(c) A defending team must not shout during a kick at goal.
Sanction: (a)-(c) If the opposing team infringes but the kick is successful, the goal stands.
If the kick is unsuccessful, the kicker may take another kick and the opposing team is not
allowed to charge.
When another kick is allowed, the kicker may repeat all the preparations. The kicker may
change the type of kick.[/LAWS]

 

[Browner]

What do you mean by "match active member"???

player/replacement/coaching team/water carrier.........add ......./physio/medic/ tee carrier/TJ / club mascot in pirate outfit !!

 

[crossref]

I am guessing that 'match active member' Simon means a coach/waterboy/physio/team manager someone like that. Not a player but invovled in the game.

what a drama for the referee to handle.