Crocodile Roll at Under 19

[Lex Hipkins]

Bit of a debate kicking off on Twitter about an article and accompanying video on Rugby World Magazine teaching juniors how to crocodile roll in rucks. Ben Ryan (Fiji coach) and Dan Cottrell amongst others condemning it.

The Twitter conversation is here: https://mobile.twitter.com/thedeadballarea/status/748047762357362688

The video is here: https://youtu.be/HMiwj51KkL4

I know that at my club we have had sessions on this subject for under 15s and upwards. But is it something they should be taught?

Should it be outlawed at U19 like squeezeball?

Should it be outlawed from the game altogether?

 

[crossref]

can't concentrate on the crocodile roll, distracted by the leggings.

It does say : wrap both arms around the torso, not around the head or neck.

 

[Decorily]

Not like this is new.... been going on for years!

I've never invoked it but....... 16.3 (c)?

 

[crossref]

all of these
[LAWS]
6.3 Rucking
(a)
Players in a ruck must endeavour to stay on their feet.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(b)
A player must not intentionally fall or kneel in a ruck. This is dangerous play.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(c)
A player must not intentionally collapse a ruck. This is dangerous play.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]

but in the real world we ignore them

 

[The Fat]

Remember that clarification 4-2014 dealt with neck rolls v body rolls


2.Ruck clear outs using “head rolls” or “body rolls”

Clarification in Law by the Designated Members of the Rugby Committee

In terms of ruck clearouts using “head rolls” and “body rolls”, this is not specifically referenced in Law. However, Law 10.4 (e) regarding dangerous play and misconduct should be applied to both the tackle and clear out:

“Dangerous tackling. A player must not tackle an opponent early, late or dangerously. A player must not tackle an opponent above the line of the shoulders even if the tackle starts below the line of the shoulders. A tackle around the neck or head is dangerous play. Sanction: Penalty kick”

Therefore body rolls are permissible but head rolls should be penalised.

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

I think it should be outlawed altogether

 

[Ian_Cook]

Bit of a debate kicking off on Twitter about an article and accompanying video on Rugby World Magazine teaching juniors how to crocodile roll in rucks. Ben Ryan (Fiji coach) and Dan Cottrell amongst others condemning it.

The Twitter conversation is here: https://mobile.twitter.com/thedeadballarea/status/748047762357362688

The video is here: https://youtu.be/HMiwj51KkL4

I know that at my club we have had sessions on this subject for under 15s and upwards. But is it something they should be taught? NO

Should it be outlawed at U19 like squeezeball? YES

Should it be outlawed from the game altogether? YES

IMO, the Crocodile/Alligator/Saddle roll is a dangerous practise and ought to be banned. We never had neck rolls taking place before this practice became accepted. It is quite simply collapsing the ruck under Law 16.3(c)

 

[SimonSmith]

USA Rugby, a few years ago, allowed it at all level, and allowed the shoulder/neck roll of all/any players. This led to a tesy eexchange of emails with Head Office.

Now, at High School and above, the GMG say that:
Any roll must be around the chest.
May only be done to a player who has hands on the ball.

I think it's crap, and worry about the injury potential. Rolling someone who has a trapped leg is just going to lead to a Catchpole injury.

 

[OB..]

I think it should be outlawed altogether

Agreed. I don't want rucks to become a wrestling match. They are messy enough as it is. (Americans, of course, have a wrestling tradition.)

 

[crossref]

I think this thread is missing the point : in terms of the Laws, crocodile rolls ARE banned, clearly they breach 16.3(a) and 16.3(c)

the question is why don't we enforce those Laws any more ?

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

I think this thread is missing the point : in terms of the Laws, crocodile rolls ARE banned, clearly they breach 16.3(a) and 16.3(c)

the question is why don't we enforce those Laws any more ?

the counter from coaches is that a roll is just clearing out to the side not collapsing

i do not agree with this

This is also a case of tacit approval akin to ball not in straight to scrum. There is also psychological component in progress here that I do not understand, but it is essentially do as the romans are doing and do not rock the boat.

 

[crossref]

the counter from coaches is that a roll is just clearing out to the side not collapsing

i do not agree with this

This is also a case of tacit approval akin to ball not in straight to scrum. There is also psychological component in progress here that I do not understand, but it is essentially do as the romans are doing and do not rock the boat.

for me if the target is in the ruck, you are collapsing a ruck, if he's not in the ruck you are playing a player without the ball

(but of course that's not how I ref it, I ref it like everyone else)

 

[ChrisR]

To execute a roll the player must intentionally go off their feet therefore violating 16.3(a).

I used to support rolling as a valid method of clearing out but don't anymore. I do support grasping the opponent from the chest down and driving them off the ruck if they can stay on their feet. Not easy to do but if the ops get very low over the ball it can be the best option.

 

[Rushforth]

(but of course that's not how I ref it, I ref it like everyone else)

I recall being surprised by the technique, but not where I asked about it (I think locally rather than here). That, however, was at (supposedly) elite level - there were internationals on each side (as well as players wearing tights).

This thread is about U19 though, and the linked video is even about minis (U13?) Safety is important at all levels, but in my opinion trumps all where young players are concerned. Adults - for better or for worse - want to be reffed to the same standards as the professional game. Parents, on the other hand, even if they play themselves, will have no issue whatsoever if you penalise callopsing (I refuse to correct this typo) a ruck for safety reasons.

In other words, I don't mind using elite interpretations for adults, even when they aren't safety related (and yes, it is funny that momentum passes were not changed in Law until so recently, but I conformed with everybody else before that). But once it comes down to the safety of other people's children, 6.4(a) applies not only during but also after the match.

 

[OB..]

it is funny that momentum passes were not changed in Law until so recently,

What law change? (The RFU knew about momentum passes back in 1948.)

 

[Rushforth]

What law change? (The RFU knew about momentum passes back in 1948.)

The RFU knew about professional rugby in 1895. But it took World Rugby until only very recently to change the Law book, as you well know

 

[Ian_Cook]

The RFU knew about professional rugby in 1895. But it took World Rugby until only very recently to change the Law book, as you well know

Rushforth, you keep harping on, flogging the same dead horse over and over, and it will always be to no avail.

Not only is OB.. correct that the RFU knew about momentum and accounted for it in judgement of forward passes as long ago as 1948, but that understanding has been used here and in Australia at least since the early 1950's. I remember a talk given at a CRRA meeting in the mid 1980's by a well known former NZ international referee, John Pring. He explained the principles of momentum in judging passes, and used a phrase that I will never forget....."watch the pass, NOT the ball". He said that is how he has always judged passes. John was a top class NZ referee who officiated in matches played by both the 1956 and 1965 Springboks in New Zealand. He went on to referee all four tests in the 1971 British Lions tour.

Momentum is not new, its just new to you!

 

[crossref]

You are both being rather unfair to Rushforth, they have indeed changed the Law to recognise the significance of momentum -- and this was only six months ago!

2015 Law Book

[LAWS]DEFINITION: THROW FORWARD
A throw forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ball forward.
‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.[/LAWS]


2016 Law Book

[LAWS]DEFINITION: THROW FORWARD
A throw forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ball forward, i.e, if the arms of the player passing the ball move towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.[/LAWS]


(Conspiracy theorists might like to note that this particular change was NOT highlighted in pale green in the Law Book, as all the other Law changes are --- so it's easy to miss. One might think they were slightly embarrassed at having to redefine a forward pass, after all this time, and tried to smuggle it in)

 

[Phil E]

(Conspiracy theorists might like to note that this particular change was NOT highlighted in pale green in the Law Book, as all the other Law changes are ---

That's because it's NOT a law change.

 

[Rich_NL]

In my experience crocodile rolls are used a response to defenders 'resting' on the tackled player, such that it's impossible to get low enough to compete for the ball. Can't go under, can't go round, got to go over... since rucking with the studs is no longer acceptable, it's become accepted as a response to sealing off in those border cases where the ref won't whistle.