Crusaders - Cheetahs "playing the ball on the Ground"

[RugbyFish]

54th min Crusaders (red) -Cheetahs (white)

- white #10 is tackled and offloads to white #14
- white #14 fumbles the ball and red 15 kicks it a short distance down the field, referee appears to be playing knock-on advantage
- ball lands in the hands of white #10 who is still on the ground (and not offside). He places the ball on his other side and releases it immediately.
- referee awards a penalty to red for "playing the ball on the ground, 10 white"

Justin Marshall comments "ok, somebody needs to explain the rule to me, I don't know it. Why could he not play the ball? He wasn't in a ruck, he wasn't in a breakdown, he wasn't being held by anyone, the ball got kicked to him [...]"

Is the call wrong? Law 14.1 doesn't explicitly state that you can't play the ball on the ground, but it may be the intention of the law that players should keep their hands off the ball when on the ground?

[LAWS](a) A player with the ball must immediately do one of three things:
• Get up with the ball
• Pass the ball
• Release the ball.
[/LAWS]

Just the fact that he was preventing red to use their advantage would surely not justify a penalty if the action was legal?

Does it make any difference that #10 white had previously been tackled?

 

[Davet]

1 - on the ground is generally out of the game
2 - he didn't pass it
3 - he didn't get up with it
4 - he didn't immediatly release it, he moved then released it.

It depends the materiality question, did his act prevent or delay an opponent gaing access to the ball?

 

[Dixie]

There is a definition to Law 14, which is normally treated as being of general application:

[LAWS]The Game is to be played by players who are on their feet.[/LAWS]

He could probably have been done for offside anyway, because the pass he gave from the floor was not forward. The fumbler (white 14) was therefore behind him, putting White 10 in an offside position (ahead of the player who last played the ball - Law 11 definition). White 10 then prevented Red getting an advantage (Law 11.1(b))

 

[didds]

It depends the materiality question, did his act prevent or delay an opponent gaing access to the ball?

It also depends omn whether one considers the law only covers the tackle situation ) or just any old time.

didds

 

[Davet]

Que? Law 14 specifically doesn't deal with a tackle.

 

[didds]

well spotted davet. Glad some is awake around here!

In whiuch case then 14.1.(a) was followed to the letter by white #10. No PK.

Possiblt 14.1(b) Pk if he doesn;t move away or get up ...

The definitions do not cover this scenario.



didds

 

[Ian_Cook]

Law 14 is one of the Laws that governs the actions of players in open play (i.e. not at a tackle, ruck, maul, scrum or line-out)


[LAWS]Law 14 Ball on the Ground - No Tackle

DEFINITIONS
This situation occurs when the ball is available on the ground and a player goes to ground to gather the ball, except immediately after a scrum or a ruck.
It also occurs when a player is on the ground in possession of the ball and has not been tackled.

The Game is to be played by players who are on their feet.

A player must not make the ball unplayable by falling down. Unplayable means that the ball is not immediately available to either team so that play may continue.

A player who makes the ball unplayable, or who obstructs the opposing team by falling down, is negating the purpose and Spirit of the Game and must be penalised.

A player who is not tackled, but who goes to ground while holding the ball, or a player who goes to ground and gathers the ball, must act immediately.
[/LAWS]

Some argue that this Law doesn't apply to the situation described but I disagree. The test is....

1. Was the ball on the ground? Yes
2. Was the player on the ground? Yes
3. Was it a tackle, ruck, maul, scrum or line-out, No

The Law 14 applies

The part of the Definitions that relates to this is "The Game is to be played by players who are on their feet.", ergo, if you are not on your feet, you are out of the game. Its the same reason that after an ankle tap, the ball carrier is not allowed to crawl along the ground. You can ask Conrad Smith and Vinny Munro about that one!

Vinny calls it "Rugby 101: Play the game on your feet"

 

[The Fat]

Law 14 is one of the Laws that governs the actions of players in open play (i.e. not at a tackle, ruck, maul, scrum or line-out)


[LAWS]Law 14 Ball on the Ground - No Tackle





DEFINITIONS
This situation occurs when the ball is available on the ground and a player goes to ground to gather the ball, except immediately after a scrum or a ruck.
It also occurs when a player is on the ground in possession of the ball and has not been tackled.

The Game is to be played by players who are on their feet.

A player must not make the ball unplayable by falling down. Unplayable means that the ball is not immediately available to either team so that play may continue.

A player who makes the ball unplayable, or who obstructs the opposing team by falling down, is negating the purpose and Spirit of the Game and must be penalised.

A player who is not tackled, but who goes to ground while holding the ball, or a player who goes to ground and gathers the ball, must act immediately.
[/LAWS]

Some argue that this Law doesn't apply to the situation described but I disagree. The test is....

1. Was the ball on the ground? Yes
2. Was the player on the ground? Yes
3. Was it a tackle, ruck, maul, scrum or line-out, No

The Law 14 applies

The part of the Definitions that relates to this is "The Game is to be played by players who are on their feet.", ergo, if you are not on your feet, you are out of the game. Its the same reason that after an ankle tap, the ball carrier is not allowed to crawl along the ground. You can ask Conrad Smith and Vinny Munro about that one!

Vinny calls it "Rugby 101: Play the game on your feet"

Possibly it is this part Ian.
"A player who is not tackled, but who goes to ground while holding the ball, or a player who goes to ground and gathers the ball, must act immediately".In the OP #10 White didn't go to ground to gather the ball, he was already on the ground and therefore had no right to take part in the game which then leads to/backs up your highlighted text, "The Game is to be played by players who are on their feet".
Would probably have to see the video as Dixie makes the valid point that #10 White may have been offside as well.

 

[didds]

if you are not on your feet, you are out of the game.

how come you can score a try laid on the ground T-i-G then?
Or prone holding the ball steady in a stong wind?


FTR I don;t disagree with the concept because it makes things nice and tied up. But its another area that come the next rewrite would apopoear to be a galring thing to be sepcified clearly and not just left to filling ion the gaps - how many times does it come up here for discussion for starters?


didds

 

[Jacko]

Good point OB. We can extend your logic to outlaw jumping in the air to catch the ball (including all forms of lifting) and come to think of it, running!

Most pleasing of all, it gives a justification to penalise Chris Ashton's splash dive. Peep - going off your feet...

 

[Ian_Cook]

White didn't go to ground to gather the ball, he was already on the ground and therefore had no right to take part in the game which then leads to/backs up your highlighted text, "The Game is to be played by players who are on their feet".
Would probably have to see the video as Dixie makes the valid point that #10 White may have been offside as well.

That is exactly what happened, but the PK was not for offside. The referee was clearly heard over the comms saying "You can't play it on the ground"

 

[OB..]

Good point OB.

 

[Dixie]

how come you can score a try laid on the ground T-i-G then?

I had no idea you could! the picture in the LoTG specifically has the T-I-G player on his feet. Where do you get the certainty that he can be lying down?

 

[didds]

One of those "common knowledge" things dave! I'm "sure" ISTR a similar picture at some time showing what I described but I confess dementia seems to be setting in these days...

law 22.12(g) Player in touch or touch-in-goal. If an attacking player is in touch or in touch-in-goal, the player can score a try by grounding the ball in the opponents’ in-goal provided the player is not carrying the ball.

It doesn't say he can't be lieing down ;-)

happy to be wrong tho - consensus chaps?

didds

 

[JP_Rocks]

Justin Marshall comments...

Here is your problem... How someone can play as much rugby as he did and yet fail to grasp the fundamentals of the law book is beyond me, unless of course he has been cast as the 'NZ commentator who makes asinine law related comments' following the departure of Murray Mexted.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Justin Marshall comments...

Here is your problem... How someone can play as much rugby as he did and yet fail to grasp the fundamentals of the law book is beyond me, unless of course he has been cast as the 'NZ commentator who makes asinine law related comments' following the departure of Murray Mexted.

:clap::clap::clap:

 

[RugbyFish]

Thanks for the replies, refs!

I understand pretty much everyone agrees that the referee's decision was correct and am happy to handle it the same way if I ever pick something like that up.

However, I feel hesitant to apply general definitions such as

[LAWS]the Game is to be played by players who are on their feet[/LAWS]

because in this case there are lots of specific rules about what a player mustn't do, e.g.

[LAWS](c) A player without the ball must not lie on, over, or near the ball to prevent opponents getting possession of it.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(d) A player on the ground must not tackle or attempt to tackle an opponent.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]

These specific provisions wouldn't be necessary if player on the ground who participated in the game was always subject to penalty anyway. It seems to just be up to everyone's gut feelings (or as JP_Rocks would call it grasping "the fundamentals of the law book") what you can do (apparently scoring while lying in touch) and what you can't do (this case). I'd struggle to explain why in this case, the definition is applied. but not in others.

BTW:I thought Justin Marshall was one of the better commentators around - particularly compared to some of the English ones who probably still believe Sam Warburton's tackle was "at most yellow" and that you have to "let him get on his feet".

 

[Pinky]

I think the issue is that where there is any contest for the ball, if one player is off his feet, then he has not rights and no right to not allow the other player (on his feet) to take the ball.

 

[Blackberry]

Another excellent and eye opening thread. I had taken it that the reason you were on the ground determined your scope of actions. If it was due to a tackle, you could take no part in the game until you had got back on your feet. However, while that is clearly specified for the tackler, it is not so clear for the tackled player

The closest law is 15.2
b) A tackled player must immediately pass the ball or release it. That player must also get up
or move away from it at once.
Sanction: Penalty kick

So it does say he must get up, though it could be claimed here he moved away from it... in so far as the ball moved away from him.

My interpretation though is that the tackler is out of the game until he gets up, but the laws are not clear.

thanks again for another thought provoking thread.

 

[irishref]

I always use the tenet "if you're off your feet, you are dead to the game"

Am I being too simplistic in my approach?

As an aside, which signal would be used by the ref for playing the ball whilst on the ground?