[Line out] Crusaders doing what they do best

[Ian_Cook]

It's worrying that we are heading into the RWC with quite a few of those

What is more worrying is the fact that Marius Jonker will be one of the TMO's at the World cup...

https://youtu.be/tnVoV-_9VGU?t=239

(beginning 3:59 on the YT timer if the link doesn't work properly)

The referee had awarded the try, so any TMO evidence must be clear and obvious to overturn that decision.

This is clearly not a forward pass at all; the passer was running at near full speed, always passing the ball with a backwards action, but Jonker thought it was "clear and compelling evidence". Even worse, Jonker was not the referee but he controlled the conversation - the TMO is there to assist the referee, not to tell him what to do.


Its time SANZAAR stopped having hometown officials for matches. The Last two Lions home games against foreign opponents were officiated by Hometown Harries - the PK count 43-6 in favour of the home team. We need to move to having a completely neutral TO4.

 

[damo]

What is more worrying is the fact that Marius Jonker will be one of the TMO's at the World cup...

https://youtu.be/tnVoV-_9VGU?t=239

(beginning 3:59 on the YT timer if the link doesn't work properly)

The referee had awarded the try, so any TMO evidence must be clear and obvious to overturn that decision.

This is clearly not a forward pass at all; the passer was running at near full speed, always passing the ball with a backwards action, but Jonker thought it was "clear and compelling evidence". Even worse, Jonker was not the referee but he controlled the conversation - the TMO is there to assist the referee, not to tell him what to do.


Its time SANZAAR stopped having hometown officials for matches. The Last two Lions home games against foreign opponents were officiated by Hometown Harries - the PK count 43-6 in favour of the home team. We need to move to having a completely neutral TO4.

That was the last 3 games, but the stats are eye-opening.

 

[Rich_NL]

I can't find the link, but there was a home/away refereeing comparison between all SANZAAR countries throughout super rugby, and the card count was even more skewed than the penalties. I'll try and find it.

 

[Balones]

maybe it is peeling off?

The laws which I listed being ignored generally are -
More than one receiver.
Not continuing to move if peeling.
Leaving the lineout without exchanging.
Jumping early.
Leaving lineout before it has ended.

And stretching it a bit admittedly, depending on context, time wasting and delaying the lineout!

 

[Ian_Cook]

That was the last 3 games, but the stats are eye-opening.

You're right

Lions v Rebels 20-1
Lions v Waratahs 11-2
Lions v Highlanders 12-3

Total 43-6

Very suspicious

 

[mcroker]

This is clearly not a forward pass at all; the passer was running at near full speed, always passing the ball with a backwards action, but Jonker thought it was "clear and compelling evidence".

Looked absolutely fine in real-time... I note he also didn't see the clear and compelling evidence of black being about 2M offside at the ruck, or the high (and slightly late) contact on white.

 

[ChuckieB]

Certainly a poor decision and the wrong person driving it, imo. Seeing more these days of team of officials acting in concert rather than just the odd intervention

 

[Ian_Cook]

Certainly a poor decision and the wrong person driving it, imo. Seeing more these days of team of officials acting in concert rather than just the odd intervention

I expect a more experienced referee with a stronger personality (such as Wayne Barnes, Nigel Owens or Angus Gardner) would have flat out overruled him.

 

[crossref]

WR have announced it was a mistaken

https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/s...-was-wrong-to-deny-crusaders-try-in-cape-town

 

[Ian_Cook]

WR have announced it was a mistaken

https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/s...-was-wrong-to-deny-crusaders-try-in-cape-town

Too late now.

Unfortunately, this is not the first time that Jonker has screwed up. He should've been put to pasture after he retired from internationals in 2012

 

[Phil E]

WR have announced it was a mistaken

https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/s...-was-wrong-to-deny-crusaders-try-in-cape-town

Only just watched the video. How on earth could anyone claim that was clearly forward? Staggering decision and I'm surprised the referee didn't just tell him to wind his neck in!

 

[Arabcheif]

See I think the pass was forward too though. His hands were level on the ball so there was no pushing the ball back with the rear hand. The ball never went back it always went forward straight from the hands. The video at the bottom of story even gives demos of forward passes ( I believe as I've not got sound on), and one of the examples given is basically what happened in the match. It went forward straight from the hand and there was no backwards movement. I get if it curved forward but started off going back, but there was none of that.

 

[OB..]

See I think the pass was forward too though. His hands were level on the ball so there was no pushing the ball back with the rear hand. The ball never went back it always went forward straight from the hands. The video at the bottom of story even gives demos of forward passes ( I believe as I've not got sound on), and one of the examples given is basically what happened in the match. It went forward straight from the hand and there was no backwards movement. I get if it curved forward but started off going back, but there was none of that.

If you see it as the ball being in front of the hand immediately after release, then that is indeed forward pass. The crucial point is not to get the ground involved in the judgement.

 

[Arabcheif]

@OB - Yeah that's how I've seen it. I feel that the ball went straight forward immediately after the release. There was no backward motion in my opinion.

 

[Pinky]

The question really is, relative to himself, did the passer throw the ball forward, ie looking at his hands, was the movement relative to himself towards the oppo DBL or towards his own DBL. In this case it was close, but I would not have expected a call in for fp as hand movement was not c&o forward. The other point to note is that the player catching the ball was 2-3m behind where the passer had run forward to by the time the ball got to him, suggesting that there was a significant backward element in the throw of the pass. Seems MJ got that one wrong.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

Its time SANZAAR stopped having hometown officials for matches. The Last two Lions home games against foreign opponents were officiated by Hometown Harries - the PK count 43-6 in favour of the home team. We need to move to having a completely neutral TO4.

Welcome to the world of the Pro O'14.

 

[Zebra1922]

I think the debate about the 'forward' pass suggests that it is not clear and obvious, in which case should the TMO really be getting involved or be permitted to overrule the on field officials on this? I'm not a big fan of the TMO anyway as I don't see why you focus on 2 plays before a score but not the multitude of other plays which also have an impact on the game.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

I guess there has to be a limit to how far back you go: The last score? To the beginning of the half? To the start of the game?

 

[Ian_Cook]

See I think the pass was forward too though. His hands were level on the ball so there was no pushing the ball back with the rear hand. The ball never went back it always went forward straight from the hands. The video at the bottom of story even gives demos of forward passes ( I believe as I've not got sound on), and one of the examples given is basically what happened in the match. It went forward straight from the hand and there was no backwards movement. I get if it curved forward but started off going back, but there was none of that.

Completely ignore the ball travelling over the ground, it plays no part in the judgement. The ONLY thing that counts is, did the passer throw the ball forwards relative to himself. Another way of looking at it is, if the passer was standing still and passed with that hand and arm action, would the ball have gone forwards from him. Its pretty obvious that it would not have.

As I said earlier, I think a more experienced referee with a stronger personality such as Barnesy or St Nige would have overruled him.

 

[Dickie E]

the other tell tale for me is to envisage what would have it looked like if the passer had continued forward unrestricted. If the passer is tackled immediately after passing it can look (incorrectly) all the world like a forward pass.