Daily Mail Vase.

[Andy P]

I watched my son lose at Twickenham yesterday to a penalty kick that was the last play of the game. Having played 8 minutes injury time - U15's by the way - A scrum was awarded in front of the posts on the 22.

The referee had a word with the defending back row not to break early, fair enough, the ball is put in and won by the attacking side. Having warned the back row the referee turned his back on them, the scrum half goes to pick the ball up and fumbles it and the defending back row break, referee then turns round to see the scrum half having a second go at it and guesses that the back row have broken early and awards the penalty that wins the game by 1 point. No help from the touch judges and the referee had already been advised twice by the officials on the side line that time was up.

If you are going to make a point of warnind the back row should the referee of at least watches what was going on rather than guess?

Even a senior RFU official said the team was robbed. Still very angry that the referee determined the end of the game that had been played hard and in good spirit.

 

[OB..]

No help from the touch judges and the referee had already been advised twice by the officials on the side line that time was up.

Were the officials miked up?
If the scrum was awarded before time expired, then it is played, and the game cannot end on a penalty.
Were the officials on the side line official timekeepers? If not, their view does not matter.

 

[jeff]

ANDY P, I Totaly agree with you. (see my thread further down)
the only one point i thought strange was the vase final at u15's. in the final seconds of the game the referee penalised the defending team for offside for the scrum half advancing towards the scrum half when the ball was still in the scrum, he told the player to go back which he did, the scrum half hadnt played or attempted to play the ball still in the scrum so hadnt impeeded him the scrum half then was able to play the ball from the scrum without any body near him. has a tackle then took place the referee then blew for the scrum half coming round the scrum. i would have said the penalty was prevented because the scrum half obbeyd the referee's instructions by going straight back onside and not interfeering with the ball or player and has the attacking scrum half hadnt made any attempt to play the ball this shouldnt have been a penalty.?

 

[dave_clark]

Having played 8 minutes injury time - U15's by the way - A scrum was awarded in front of the posts on the 22.

just on this point, there were an awful lot of injury breaks in the second half so 8 minutes sounds about right to me.

 

[Dixie]

Having played 8 minutes injury time - U15's by the way - A scrum was awarded in front of the posts on the 22.

And further to this point, it makes no difference if it is an U.13 friendly or a full adult international. Time lost due to injuries, substitutions, shorts needing replacement etc. is added on in full at the end of each half. If eight minutes were lost, then eight minutes have to be added.

In junior rugby, there is likely to be more time lost as refs are quicker to blow up for possible injury. Children are generally less robust than adults, so this is to be expected and applauded.

 

[Dixie]

No help from the touch judges and the referee had already been advised twice by the officials on the side line that time was up.

There is a lot of misunderstanding about the use of TJ's in a big match. Unlike in soccer, they are not Assistant Referees. The ref maintains absolute control of the game, but has the discretion to ask the TJ to draw specific things to his attention. This briefing will be done before the game, and perhaps reviewed at half-time.

Most refs outside the elite will ask their TJ to deal with all touch-related matters (including touch-in-goal), mark the defensive 10m at lineouts and PK/FK, and (normally only in the higher echelons) alert the ref to foul play (i.e. Law 10 offences) in the 15m channel when the ref is on the openside.

A ref does NOT want to be told about not-straight lineouts, run-of-the-mill forward passes and knock-ons etc, as the constant bleating in his ear will put him off his game. This is particularly true if there is any prospect that players or spectators might hear a TJ's call that the ref decides not to act upon - either because he saw it and thought it OK, or because he's playing an advantage.

So I would consider it normal that the ref received no help from his TJ on such a matter - it's unlikely to have formed part of TJ's allocatetd scope when they received their briefing.

 

[Padster]

The penalty to win that match was (in my opinion) induced by the fly half hitting the post with a drop goal attempt a few minutes earlier. The defending side were very aware that the fly half had gone into the pocket to line up the kick and wanted to get out as quickly as possible.
I wanted Calday to win because of the football fan type behaviour of their opponents supporters.

 

[dave_clark]

interesting point - the crowd dynamic was very different to when i've been to twickenham before. there was more of a football mentality (with the players too - Calday winger's try celebration anyone?), but i guess that's to be expected on a schools day when there's going to be a higher proportion of round ball players and fans.

 

[Andy P]

Our wingers celebration was unfortunate but in response to the sustained booing and whistling during Calday kicks, and subsequent cheering after two penalty misses not unexpected. A number of parents felt they needed to move seats and I witnessed the Calday boys being booed as they left the changing rooms at the back of the stand after the game.

I wouldn't be so annoyed if the referee had pinged blatant early breaking by both back rows through out the game. I do feel he had set himself up to award a penalty and didn't have a good enough view of what was happening.

The boys could have lived with a drop kick or try but not a penalty at that stage in the game for at best an infringement that had been allowed through out the game and at worst a guess by the referee - having missed the knock on that should have made it a Calday put in. Ah well nobody died.

 

[truck'n'trailor]

Andy P - without having seen the incident it is always a little difficult to comment accurately. It would be a shame, however, if the incident had been as you described, and would be disappointing to hear that a referee had 'guessed', which ultimately resulted in the critical score.

Had I been the ref, I would have been extremely disappointed if spectators were able to overhear my TJs (on more than one occasion) telling me that time was up.

 

[Gareth-Lee Smith]

I think, with all respect Andy, your association with the losing side makes it difficult for you to be entirely objective.

I wasn't there, but I think you sum it up perfectly with your final words.

 

[tim White]

With respect, compare the referees grading (I summise it will be very high for this game) with your own. Do you now think he guessed?:chin:

 

[Phil E]

Who was it on an earlier thread that said, their society doesn't ever downgrade referees?

Even the best can make mistakes. Does 3 yellow cards in a football match ring any bells?

 

[Simon Thomas]

Andy P - I checked the DM Finals match reports on www.rfu.com and these were all National Panel Refs (grade 2/3) with extensive experience, who have worked their way up from the bottom as newly qualifieds, through Society Referee & Development (C and B grade as was) courses, Development Squads (Society/Federation), minimum of a season on Group at level 5 (and watched every week by and assessor and with own coach), nominated for Panel and got through the competitive selection process at the RFU 'Next Steps' weekend.

I doubt that the referee guessed, whatever your perception of the incident may have been. He will have been assessed on the match and an honest discussion held with his RFU Assessor & Coach as this was a 'Critical Incident'.

Have a look at an excellent document Accepting Responsibility written for the IRB by By Tom Jones, IRB Regional Development Manager North America and the West Indies


Phil E - in the past some Societies maybe did not downgrade referees but in 2007/08 all referees are reviewed at Grading time and if necessary downgraded - and taken off National Panel, dropped from Group, off Federation Squad, off Society Squad (making room for rising refs).

I was downgraded last season to 8 from 7, as at 50 yrs old personally I am not fit enough or fast enough off the mark to do a difficult level 7 match anymore (yes I could do an easy non-challenging one of course). Also with limited level 6 and 7 matches in our County and Federation I also need to make room for 'rising' 8s and 9s of the future to be challenged at levels 7 to prove their potential.

 

[Andy P]

Yes. he didn't see the s/h fumble. I think made up his mind that if it wasn't clean ball it must be a penalty may be a better way of putting it. experience of the ref doesn't cover it otherwise having his back on the key area doesn't sound like good refereeing. even if I'm wrong on the guess, to change the way you decide to referee a scrum in the last seconds of a game was poor.

 

[dave_clark]

how wonderful it would be if we could watch all key areas at once!

as on the other thread, i thought that he gave the penalty for an early break by the flanker rather than the scrum half offside...

 

[Simon Thomas]

What was the secondary signal given on the day ?

 

[dave_clark]

i don't recall (guessing that it was the not binding), and can't find a video.

could be one where there was more than one offence of course. for example the daily bigot report says that the penalty was for the backs coming offside, but i'm not sure if their writers have seen a rugby ball before.

 

[OB..]

I was downgraded last season to 8 from 7, as at 50 yrs old personally I am not fit enough or fast enough off the mark to do a difficult level 7 match anymore (yes I could do an easy non-challenging one of course).

My society does not downgrade for age related reasons - we move referees to the Senior Squad. They retain their grading level to indicate their level of experience, but are no longer regularly appointed at that level. This leaves room for the younger guys coming through. You would thus be SS7 now.

 

[Davet]

You would thus be SS7 now.

Steam Ship Seven?