[Law] Dead or Alive!

[Balones]

Clarification 2-2007 clearly states that the ball is 'dead' at a penalty which causes all sorts of discussions/disagreements about when a player can be returned to play after a suspension or when a substitution can be made because many will quote 3.13(b) and will say that a ball is not dead at a penalty. Is it? (Not withstanding the fact that it definitely is not if the non-offending side want to take a quick penalty.)

Is there anywhere that says when a ball is 'live'?

 

[crossref]

The word 'dead' is not used consistently in the Laws

And anyway its a slippery concept, there are plenty of situations where play has stopped but one team is still free to play the ball and thus restart play by PK, QTI, Dropout or FK

 

[OB..]

The Clarification only deals with the case where the team awarded the penalty wants to bring a player on.

The other team has no such right ie they cannot stop a quick penalty.

 

[Balones]

The Clarification only deals with the case where the team awarded the penalty wants to bring a player on.

The other team has no such right ie they cannot stop a quick penalty.

Totally agree OB..
Unfortunately there are people that refuse to admit that 2-2007 exists and simply quote 3.13(b) and do not accept that the non-offending side can cause a dead ball and bring a player on. Such people take the stance that no player can return or be brought on even from the non-offending side.

 

[Thunderhorse1986]

Totally agree OB..
Unfortunately there are people that refuse to admit that 2-2007 exists and simply quote 3.13(b) and do not accept that the non-offending side can cause a dead ball and bring a player on. Such people take the stance that no player can return or be brought on even from the non-offending side.

How about players returning from yellow cards? I made a team wait at a penalty until they kicked the ball to touch for their carded player to come back. Made sense for me to wait, but if they'd missed touch and open play had carried on for 5 minutes I might have felt a bit silly....

 

[crossref]

For me the non offending team are completely entitled to eschew the chance of a quick tap, and instead to make substitutions and bring back YC players.
But If they do so, then so can the other team do the same.

If after a PK award I call time off to treat an injury, then while time is off I would let either side make a replacement or bring back a YC

 

[Balones]

How about players returning from yellow cards? I made a team wait at a penalty until they kicked the ball to touch for their carded player to come back. Made sense for me to wait, but if they'd missed touch and open play had carried on for 5 minutes I might have felt a bit silly....

Clarification 2-2007 is below. What do you think?
Clarification 2 2007
Ruling in Law by the Designated Members of the Rugby Committee
Ruling
2-2007
Union / HP Ref Manager
IRFU
Law Reference
3
Date
12 March 2007
Request
1. A penalty kick is awarded to White team. Before the kick is taken, can White team make a substitution? (If so, we assume that the substitute can take the penalty kick.)

2. A penalty kick is awarded to White team. Before the kick is taken can a previously sin-binned White player return; given that the 10 minutes have fully elapsed? (If so, we assume that the returning player may take the penalty kick.)
Ruling in Law by the Designated Members of the Rugby Committee
A substitution can only be made when the ball is dead. A referee must not let a player rejoin the match until the ball is dead. The ball is dead when the ball is out of play. This happens when the ball has gone outside the playing area and remained there, or when the referee has blown the whistle to indicate a stoppage in play, or when a conversion kick has been taken.

In both cases outlined above, the ball is dead, and therefore the answer to each question is in the affirmative.

 

[Balones]

Totally agree OB..
Unfortunately there are people that refuse to admit that 2-2007 exists and simply quote 3.13(b) and do not accept that the non-offending side can cause a dead ball and bring a player on. Such people take the stance that no player can return or be brought on even from the non-offending side.

OB...
What is the situation in your part of the world? I believe that we have the situation where ideally officials (and perhaps WR) do not want returns and substitutions/replacements at a penalty but not have rescinded 2-2007. Due to word of mouth and the fact that most referees probably have not been refereeing nine plus years, 2-2007 has been forgotten and the practice is to not allow a player on at a penalty for whatever reason and for whatever side.

A genuine question, what is the situation in other parts of the world?

 

[crossref]

my experience is that they allow it.

it's similar to a QTI -- blue kick the ball out, and red gather it and a QTI is 'on' ---

- red can take the QTI, in which case there is no chance for any players (of either team) to join the game
- or red can decline the QTI and opt for a line out - in which case players can come on.

I don't think any ref would argue with that, and even without 2.2007 it seems to me you'd apply exactly the same logic at a PK.

 

[chbg]

Totally agree OB..
Unfortunately there are people that refuse to admit that 2-2007 exists and simply quote 3.13(b) and do not accept that the non-offending side can cause a dead ball and bring a player on. Such people take the stance that no player can return or be brought on even from the non-offending side.

Get them to read the definitions (my highlight):
[LAWS]
Dead: The ball is out of play. This happens when the ball has gone outside the playing area and remained there, or when the referee has blown the whistle to indicate a stoppage in play, or when a conversion kick has been taken.[/LAWS]

This is no different from te 9-year old Clarification (which ought to have been absorbed into the Laws by now if it was necessary).

They are possibly (for some strange reason) confusing the issue (in England) with the RFU Regulation that a rolling substitute cannot take a kick at goal immediately aafter coming on:

A Player who is a replacement shall not be entitled to take a kick at goal until a passage of play has taken place since that Player took to the field of play. (Reg 13, Appx 2, Para 26)

 

[crossref]

Get them to read the definitions (my highlight):
[LAWS]
Dead: The ball is out of play. This happens when the ball has gone outside the playing area and remained there, or when the referee has blown the whistle to indicate a stoppage in play, or when a conversion kick has been taken.[/LAWS]

yes, but that doesn't help for this question ---- there are lots of situations when the referee has blown his whistle, yet the ball is NOT completely dead, and subs are not allowed
- after a mark is called
- when the ball goes into touch, if a QTI is on
- at PK/FK when a quick tap is taken
- when a 22m dropout is awarded

these are all what we have called zombie-ball situations : not quite dead not quite alive.

 

[Camquin]

Can the offending side make a substitution at a penalty if the on-offending side choose the option of a a scrum or line-out?

I think they should be able to - as the ball is then properly dead.

Also can the defending side make a substitution at a 22m drop-out.
Law says it must be taken without delay, but I see not reason to prevent them making a substitution.

I think you can make a substiution

1: The defending side may make a substitution before taking 22m drop out or after making a mark.
2: The non-offending team may make a substitution after being awarded a penalty or free kick
3: Either side may make a substitution
- At half time
- Before a restart after a score
- At any scrum or line-out
- At any point time is off.
- At any point the other side makes a substitution under clause 1 or 2.

Yes it is longer than the current written law - but it captures what is actually played and means we do not need clarifications and guidelines which hide the complexities.
I think we should admit the game is complex and permit the laws to be long enough to capture them - and do so clearly rather than expecting everyone to know what is meant.

Exposing the complexity might mean someon could look at the laws and see if there are simplifications that could be made without destroying the game.

 

[crossref]

one thing I would add to this -- if the non-offending team do take the opportunity to make a substitution/bring back a YC player, then I would allow the other team to do the same, also.

 

[chbg]

yes, but that doesn't help for this question ---- there are lots of situations when the referee has blown his whistle, yet the ball is NOT completely dead, and subs are not allowed
- after a mark is called
- when the ball goes into touch, if a QTI is on
- at PK/FK when a quick tap is taken
- when a 22m dropout is awarded

these are all what we have called zombie-ball situations : not quite dead not quite alive.

The ball is dead in every case (Definition), but is allowed to come back into play so quickly that it is only momentarily dead.

The primary restriction in 3.13b on a player re-joining the match is the referee's permission. That can ony be given when the ball is dead, but does not have to be given on every occasion, particularly those that you describe, when the ball is back in play quickly.

 

[crossref]

The ball is dead in every case (Definition), but is allowed to come back into play so quickly that it is only momentarily dead.
.

well, doesn't have to be allowed into play, it is just played.

but the point is the Law book isn't helpful: the Laws say you can make a substitution when the ball is dead. The law then defines the siutation when the ball is dead -- but on most of them you can't actually make a substitution.

the clarification only made it worse when it said

In both cases outlined above, the ball is dead, and therefore the answer to each question is in the affirmative.

because that simply doesn't follow at all...

 

[DocY]

To (reluctantly) jump to the lawbook's defence, 3.13(c) says a player may not come on the pitch without the referee's permission.

To me, this means that they have to ask for permission (usually through the captain) and you're not going to stop play to speak to the captain in any of the 'zombie ball' situations.

 

[Dixie]

The ball is dead in every case (Definition), but is allowed to come back into play so quickly that it is only momentarily dead.

The primary restriction in 3.13b on a player re-joining the match is the referee's permission. That can ony be given when the ball is dead, but does not have to be given on every occasion, particularly those that you describe, when the ball is back in play quickly.

And this seems to me to be the crux of it. Any player may only return to or enter the field of play with permission; that permission will only be given when the ball is dead; but it doesn't have to be given - meaning that the ref can wave away requests during the zombie-ball situations Crossref identifies.

I disagree with OB that the clarification only covers the non-offending team. The questions focused on the non-offenders, but the answer given was, in my opinion, wider - covering both teams.

 

[DocY]

And this seems to me to be the crux of it. Any player may only return to or enter the field of play with permission; that permission will only be given when the ball is dead; but it doesn't have to be given - meaning that the ref can wave away requests during the zombie-ball situations Crossref identifies.

I disagree with OB that the clarification only covers the non-offending team. The questions focused on the non-offenders, but the answer given was, in my opinion, wider - covering both teams.

I think the point was that it isn't a blanket "you can always bring a player on" at a penalty. It's not specific to one team or the other, no, but the non-offending team should not expect to be able to bring a player on - it's at the discretion of the non-offending team: if they slow the game down enough, the offending team could bring a player on.

 

[OB..]

I disagree with OB that the clarification only covers the non-offending team. The questions focused on the non-offenders, but the answer given was, in my opinion, wider - covering both teams.

Since the quetgion only referred to the non-offending team, is is surely reasonable to assume the answer (unless otherwise specified - which it isn't) is similarly restricted. I think it is a stretch to say the answer was meant to apply to both teams.

 

[Balones]

Since the quetgion only referred to the non-offending team, is is surely reasonable to assume the answer (unless otherwise specified - which it isn't) is similarly restricted. I think it is a stretch to say the answer was meant to apply to both teams.

in general terms terms I agree OB but it might be a case that it is a chance the non-offending side might have to take. If the non-offending side create a 'dead; ball situation then it is a dead ball situation, and at a dead ball both sides usually have equal options. If it is a dead ball for one side how can it not be a dead ball for the other?