Debate about the breakdown

[Womble]

Why are you assuming that the shoulders are bellow hips?

 

[Browner]

the coaches, players and fans all want quick ball and space. those are our goals.

It may be your goal, but i can't imagine all those groups haven given you their proxy voice

 

[L'irlandais]

Womble,
It's not an assumption, it's anthropometrics.
Look at 3rd Image : for blue to place both hands on the ball, on the ground, without his shoulders going below the hip line, he'd have to have very stubby legs.
Even the first image shows two blue players with poor body position to drive their opponents back off the ball.
The yellow jerseyed player in image 1 has the correct body position to safely enage the opposition.

Image 1 is wrong on so many counts really, shame on the iRB to list it as a good example.
1. Ball carrier hasn't released the ball yet.
2. Tackler hasn't released his man.
3. Only 1 out of the 4 players on their feet has the right attitude for driving his opponents off the ball.

"Planes taking off, not planes landing!" is the coaching catch phrase out here for players driving into a ruck. One's spine needs to be angled upwards, to safely push off one's hips. Not for a referee to be aware of, but that mouthy coach might do well to stick to doing his own job well, and let the match referee get on with his job, as best he can.

ps. The referee's the only person entitled to an opinion during the game , so that coach can like it or lump it.

 

[Womble]

Weight lifting I know but just to prove a point, body shape I coach to stay leagle as a jackler!

 

[Phil E]

ps. The referee's the only person entitled to an opinion during the game , so that coach can like it or lump it.

We are meant to be working with coaches, not against them.

We are trying to get away from this Them and Us mentality.

 

[L'irlandais]

... The coach of one side was, not having a go at the referee but was debating his decisions about the breakdown and the ruck.... can he just put his hands on it trying to win maybe a penalty against the tackled player for not releasing which was put the coach who stated that was not the case.

Tell that to the coach, Phil. During the game, the coach should be telling his players to obey the match referee, not trying to undermine the man's authority. At least half of those who've replied to this discussion find the coach's tactic debatable. So either a quick word before the game, or a quiet word after the match to debate the issue.
No way, during a game I'm going to let a coach repeatedly contradict my decisions from the sideline. :sad:

 

[Simon Thomas]

We are meant to be working with coaches, not against them.

We are trying to get away from this Them and Us mentality.

This is very much the new RFU Development Department message - ONE GAME. Referees and coaches should be working in tandem, so you are both right. But it is a two-way thing and coaches have to learn to stop undermining referees decisions.

We need more agreement upfront of protocols (and interpretations) at all levels, which work pretty well at L5 (how about Panel Womble/Jacko/KML1 ?).

 

[L'irlandais]

Simon, I agree entirely. However the coach in question is certain not entitled to debate decisions from the sideline. Ignoring law 6A4 in order to prove himself right on (a debatable point of law in) 15.4, just isn't on. I am a mini/midi/maxi coach, who got into reffin' only because here coachs are obliged to ref, since local referees are not trained in all aspects of mini/midi/maxi player safety. I then moved up to other age groups, because I enjoyed being in the middle. Don't believe I am guilty of an "Us and Them" attitude, being first and foremost a coach.

My point, is more that the coach is trying to be too clever, ignoring player safety. First teach them to get the basics right, drive over the ball to win the ruck. Let the clever stuff to the professional players ; TV rugby is a very different sport, I certainly dislike seeing it imitated at the local Rec.

Rugby laws explained: The ruck
It this BBC clip, the jackler did the most natural thing in the world, he bound on to the opposition player who drove in to him. Why, would a coach in grassroots want teach anything different?

 

[Browner]

Simon, I agree entirely. However the coach in question is certain not entitled to debate decisions from the sideline. Ignoring law 6A4 in order to prove himself right on (a debatable point of law in) 15.4, just isn't on. I am a mini/midi/maxi coach, who got into reffin' only because here coachs are obliged to ref, since local referees are not trained in all aspects of mini/midi/maxi player safety. I then moved up to other age groups, because I enjoyed being in the middle. Don't believe I am guilty of an "Us and Them" attitude, being first and foremost a coach.

My point, is more that the coach is trying to be too clever, ignoring player safety. First teach them to get the basics right, drive over the ball to win the ruck. Let the clever stuff to the professional players ; TV rugby is a very different sport, I certainly dislike seeing it imitated at the local Rec.

Rugby laws explained: The ruck
It this BBC clip, the jackler did the most natural thing in the world, he bound on to the opposition player who drove in to him. Why, would a coach in grassroots want teach anything different?[/QUOTE]

Hmmnn ?
At England U16 players are expected to have a game/skill/set that starts to match the elite .....'saddle roll' etc

Who teaches him this? school/club/District/ SoR / EPDG ?

I listened to a U15 Midlands training camp, where the 'absence of skills' was being offerred as a problem that needed addressing before the players arrive there !

Or ............. Elite could revert back to the shoving contest, to match the LoTG?

 

[OB..]

Rugby laws explained: The ruck
It this BBC clip, the jackler did the most natural thing in the world, he bound on to the opposition player who drove in to him. Why, would a coach in grassroots want teach anything different?

That clip dates from 2008, before jackling was legal.

 

[harlequins1970]

Yipe, yet another discussion going off topic.

The BFG's post #15 makes the most sense in the context of harlequins1970's original post.
The jackler's coach is coaching his (young?) players to adopt a position (shoulders below hips) which is dangerous. Shame the opposition's prop didn't pile into him, that'd end the debate about safe, or not safe. In the interests of player safety, blow up the ruck, consider red carding the coach for repeatedly shouting at the ref's decision.
I don't particularly disagree with those who say the ref may have got it wrong ; however perhaps harlequins1970 might like to point out to the coach in question that player safety comes first ; that and any decent coach would wait 'til after the game to have a quiet word with the ref about the decision, rather than shouting during the game. (Showing great example to his charges, not!) The coach is wrong on at least 2 counts. As far as we know the ref only made the 1 misinterpretation of the LoTG.
First thing I learnt as a coach was to observe during the games, how else can he hope to advice/correct/improve his players abilities.

the jackler was a big old lump and only a steamroller would move him:biggrin:. I probably won't see the coach in question again as it was a walk in the park to see a local game which I don't get to do too often. I must admit I have enjoyed reading all your comments which I am sure the referee in question would have done

 

[FlipFlop]

Challenge to OB and Flipflop: bearing in mind that Law 21 deals with the team taking a PK or FK, and not with rucks, find an offence in the iRB law book with which to punish the jackler who holds the ball against the body of a rolled-up tackled player who is busily covering his head rather than rolling away?

If you read what I said in full - a jackler purely with hands on ball, and not making any attempt to take possession, will not be high up my list of priorities. He can stay there, but in a ruck where there are always lots of illegal things happening, so decisions can almost always go either way, he is less likely to get any rub of the green.

In my mind the jackler became legal to allow the situation where a player who has hands on, can then continue to try and win possession of the ball by lifting it and turning it over.

As for OBs qu about rucking the ball & hands - 2 hands can't cover the whole ball, hence my comment about allowing rucking the ball (and incidental contact), but not allowing deliberate targetting of hands.

And at most levels, allowing a player to just hold the ball in, is likely to lead to a flashpoint. I'm trying to avoid that.

But lets be honest - how often do you see someone jsut hold the ball down, without trying to lift, or steal it, or without them trying to win a PK for "holding on"? Rarely in my experience. Likely to be taken to ground, or pushed off it, of have hands pulled off it.

 

[L'irlandais]

...I listened to a U15 Midlands training camp, where the 'absence of skills' was being offerred as a problem that needed addressing before the players arrive there !

Or ............. Elite could revert back to the shoving contest, to match the LoTG

The Jackler has only been legal since some when after 11 May 2009 question by All Blacks to iRB for clarification.

Cheers Browner, The skills levels in Underage rugby in Ireland are much higher than here in France. The French Union has been ham-stringed by it's Nationwide Insurer, who wants player safety to be the Number one priority.
I agree that players at regional selection need to already to have understood RFU core skills ; however "some big old lump" playing down your local Rec of a Saturday, might be better off getting the basics right. Horses for courses. No way the RFU would accept any coach at "a U15 Midlands training camp" to debate a referee's decision from the sideline.

 

[Taff]

.... But lets be honest - how often do you see someone jsut hold the ball down, without trying to lift, or steal it, or without them trying to win a PK for "holding on"? Rarely in my experience.

Exactly. What is he going to gain by just holding the ball down?

Surely nearly every player will grab the ball and play it if he can.

 

[Womble]

Exactly. What is he going to gain by just holding the ball down?

Surely nearly every player will grab the ball and play it if he can.

Do any of you chat to coaches? For every 1/5 of a second the ball can be slowed down, the defence can get back and re aline by about 1m, you don't need to slow it much & its only a ploy used when there isn't enough time to lift it. Secondly, if the jackler can just get his fingers the far side, when he is cleaned out he may just be able to drag the ball with him. We are talking fine margins here but still worth discussing and learning about.

 

[Taff]

Do any of you chat to coaches? For every 1/5 of a second the ball can be slowed down, the defence can get back and re aline by about 1m ...

But presumably by the same logic if the Jackler picked up the ball 1/5 of a second earlier, he could himself then gain 1m.

 

[ddjamo]

Do any of you chat to coaches? For every 1/5 of a second the ball can be slowed down, the defence can get back and re aline by about 1m, you don't need to slow it much & its only a ploy used when there isn't enough time to lift it. Secondly, if the jackler can just get his fingers the far side, when he is cleaned out he may just be able to drag the ball with him. We are talking fine margins here but still worth discussing and learning about.

agree. don't forget to yell "sir" as you are being rucked away...

 

[FlipFlop]

Do any of you chat to coaches? For every 1/5 of a second the ball can be slowed down, the defence can get back and re aline by about 1m, you don't need to slow it much & its only a ploy used when there isn't enough time to lift it. Secondly, if the jackler can just get his fingers the far side, when he is cleaned out he may just be able to drag the ball with him. We are talking fine margins here but still worth discussing and learning about.

Well aware of that tactic - and would put that in the "trying to win the ball" category. And happy for him to slow down the ball by just pushing down on it. But he isn't going to win a PK from me. And if he complains about the oppo holding on, will say that until he tries to lift the ball, he won't get a holding on PK.

 

[ChrisR]

I'm a coach. I coach players to play within the Laws. The Laws shape the game, not the referee's or spectator's perception on how the game is to be played.

Managing the tempo of the game is an important element of play. When the opponents have possession, are going forward and want to play quickly then the defenders have every right to slow play legally.

Law 16.4(b) allows a player to handle the ball in the ruck if .... they have their hands on the ball before the ruck is formed. No requirement here to pick it up or let it go.

Law 15.6(e) is not applicable as it is tackle law, not ruck.

In the scenario of the OP the defender got his hands on the ball before the ruck formed. Nothing wrong here. Likely ensuing events:

Attackers immediately drive off the jackler and so retain the ball. No foul, jackler legally slowed play.

Jackler gets possession and defenders win the ruck to get the turnover.

Jackler attempts the play ball back to his side but tackled player is in the way. Law 16.4(d) requires that player to attempt to get out of the way and not interfere with the ball. That is a PK offense.

Jackler keeps hands on the ball and it becomes unplayable. Scrum to team going forward.

With correct technique the jackler should be able to be "on his feet" and "hips below shoulders".

Where's the offense?

Nothing on the part of the jackler.

 

[Taff]

... Where's the offense?

Doesn't 15.6(e) cover it?

15.6(e) Any player who gains possession of the ball at the tackle must play the ball immediately by moving away or passing or kicking the ball.
Sanction: Penalty kick

The intention is clear.