Definition of "Out of the Ruck"

belladonna

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What's the official definition of the ball being out of the ruck? I've heard it defined in these hallowed halls as being being defined by an imaginary piece of elastic around the rucking players but I can't find a reference online. I've also heard it defined as if a bird could poo on the ball but I can't find a reference for that either! ?
 

chbg


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A ruck is formed when a player from each side are in contact over the ball on the ground. The ruck is over when the ball leaves this situation. That is the definition. All other explanations are attempts to describe this, which mean different things to different people. Take your pick, there is no other definition.
 

Dickie E


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Law 15.18:

The ruck ends and play continues when the ball leaves the ruck or when the ball in the ruck is on or over the goal line.


"Leaves the ruck" is unambiguous to me.
 

belladonna

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Law 15.18:

The ruck ends and play continues when the ball leaves the ruck or when the ball in the ruck is on or over the goal line.


"Leaves the ruck" is unambiguous to me.
How would you define it?
 

Balones

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As a rough guide I tell players it is when -
1 - the scrum half has has lifted the ball and has it under control. It is up to you to decide what is meant be under control; just be consistent.
2 - the ball is clear of the bodies on the ground; whether it is at the back or even the side.

Don’t call it out but communicate clearly if asked.
I also tell referees that if asked to tell players not to risk it if they are not sure because it is a soft penalty.
 

belladonna

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As a rough guide I tell players it is when -
1 - the scrum half has has lifted the ball and has it under control. It is up to you to decide what is meant be under control; just be consistent.
2 - the ball is clear of the bodies on the ground; whether it is at the back or even the side.

Don’t call it out but communicate clearly if asked.
I also tell referees that if asked to tell players not to risk it if they are not sure because it is a soft penalty.
Thanks Balones. What about if the ball is clear of players on the ground but there are still players on their feet in contact over the ball? Where would the line be then between in and out?
 

Jz558


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For me, all of the ball beyond the back foot of the hindmost player. Scrum half only comes into consideration when lifting a clearly won ball out of the mess on the deck (which seems a relatively recent concept anyway).
 

belladonna

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Same way I would define leaving the house. One moment I'm inside, the next I'm outside. The transition between these two states is "leaving".
Good to know you can tell the difference between being inside and outside your own house ?
 

Camquin

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One of the problems is the scrum-half has no permission in law to touch the ball while it is still in the ruck - or to advanced beyond the hindmost foot.

But if we penalized every 9 who picked up a ball before it was out, we would not get a game of rugby, and if we let the side not in possession advance as soon as the 9 touches the ball, play would be a mess.

However, by letting them get away with it, we permit the "caterpillar" ruck, which most people would love to get rid of.

It would be ideal, if the law book matched how the game has to be refereed, and then we would be able to apply it, without need for long threads on forums like these.
 

Zebra1922


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One of the problems is the scrum-half has no permission in law to touch the ball while it is still in the ruck - or to advanced beyond the hindmost foot.

But if we penalized every 9 who picked up a ball before it was out, we would not get a game of rugby, and if we let the side not in possession advance as soon as the 9 touches the ball, play would be a mess.

However, by letting them get away with it, we permit the "caterpillar" ruck, which most people would love to get rid of.

It would be ideal, if the law book matched how the game has to be refereed, and then we would be able to apply it, without need for long threads on forums like these.
There’s a difference between allowing a SH to dig around a rJack to find and clear the ball, and a SH rolling the ball backwards on the ground with his hands. The latter can easily be managed/penalised if require. It doesn’t solve all the caterpillar problems, as the SH then just uses their feet, but it stops the gregarious abuse of the no hands rule.
 

crossref


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Same way I would define leaving the house. One moment I'm inside, the next I'm outside. The transition between these two states is "leaving".
what if you are standing in your porch, with your coat on, one hand on the front foor about to close it behind you, but you have paused, motionless , because you are suddenly not sure if you have remembered your keys...
 

crossref


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For me, all of the ball beyond the back foot of the hindmost player. Scrum half only comes into consideration when lifting a clearly won ball out of the mess on the deck (which seems a relatively recent concept anyway).
the ball could certainly come out at the side though.
 

crossref


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What's the official definition of the ball being out of the ruck? I've heard it defined in these hallowed halls as being being defined by an imaginary piece of elastic around the rucking players but I can't find a reference online. I've also heard it defined as if a bird could poo on the ball but I can't find a reference for that either! ?
i think the imaginary piece of elastic is quite good, but better image is an imaginary sheet of cling film stretched all over the players...

.. because the scrum half could lift the ball upwards and clear of the cling film (ball is out) even though (from a bird's eye view) it would be inside the ring of elastic.

(if that makes sense!)
 

Camquin

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Zebra, she can only roll the ball back with her foot, if the other foot is behind the offside line, the hindmost foot. Which 99 times out of a 100 is not the case.
 

Balones

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Thanks Balones. What about if the ball is clear of players on the ground but there are still players on their feet in contact over the ball? Where would the line be then between in and out?
Still a ruck because that is the definition of a ruck.
 

Dickie E


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what if you are standing in your porch, with your coat on, one hand on the front foor about to close it behind you, but you have paused, motionless , because you are suddenly not sure if you have remembered your keys...
if your missus calls out "have you left yet?", ... that will give you a clue.
 

Mipper


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if your missus calls out "have you left yet?", ... that will give you a clue.
..and I suspect you’ll get much less than 5 seconds to take action!
”in or out, just shut the bloody door”
 

nylluma

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Same way I would define leaving the house. One moment I'm inside, the next I'm outside. The transition between these two states is "leaving".
But what if the house leaves you behind? (e.g. red 6 clears blue 7, can another blue pick up the ball? Because i've seen instances where even after the clear and no one being on the ball, the ref penalised picking up the ball)
 
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