Documentary - Should rugby be made safer?

[Scarlet Al]

Interesting documentary... I recommend you watch if you have a spare half hour... Originally aired on BBC One Wales - 27/7/10.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00t941n/Week_In_Week_Out_The_Pain_Game/

Are we forgetting the fact that rugby is a contact sport? Or do we have to look at cases like wrestler Chris Benoit?
Although a bit different in that he had previous history with steroid abuse etc. If you don't know the story then this is an extract from Wikipedia.

On June 25, 2007, police entered Benoit's home on a "welfare check" after several missed appointments, leading to concerns.[98] The officers discovered the bodies of Benoit, his wife Nancy, and their 7-year-old son Daniel at around 2:30 p.m. EDT.[99] Upon investigating, no additional suspects were sought by authorities.[100] It was determined that Benoit had committed the murders.[101]
Over a three day period, Benoit had killed his wife and son before he hanged himself.[14][15] His wife was bound before the killing. Benoit's son was drugged and likely unconscious before Benoit strangled him.[102] Benoit then committed suicide with a weight machine.[101]

Toxicology reports released on July 17, 2007 revealed that at their time of death, Nancy had three different drugs in her system: Xanax, hydrocodone, and hydromorphone, all of which were found at the therapeutic rather than toxic levels. Daniel was found to have Xanax in his system, which led the chief medical examiner to believe that he was sedated before he was murdered. Benoit was found to have Xanax, hydrocodone, and an elevated level of testosterone, caused by a synthetic form of the hormone, in his system. The chief medical examiner attributed the testosterone level to Benoit possibly being treated for a deficiency caused by previous steroid abuse or testicular insufficiency. There was no indication that anything in Benoit's body contributed to his violent behavior that led to the murder-suicide, concluding that there was no "roid-rage" involved.[104] Prior to the murder-suicide, Benoit had been given illegal steroids not in compliance with WWE's Talent Wellness Program in February 2006. Benoit received nandrolone and anastrozole. During the investigation into steroid abuse, it was revealed that other wrestlers had also been given steroids.[105][106]

After the double-murder suicide, former wrestler Christopher Nowinski contacted Michael Benoit, father of Chris Benoit, suggesting that years of trauma to his son's brain may have led to his actions. Tests were conducted on Benoit's brain by Julian Bailes, the head of neurosurgery at West Virginia University, and results showed that "Benoit's brain was so severely damaged it resembled the brain of an 85-year-old Alzheimer's patient."[107] He was reported to have had an advanced form of dementia, similar to the brains of four retired NFL players who had suffered multiple concussions, sank into depression, and harmed themselves or others. Bailes and his colleagues concluded that repeated concussions can lead to dementia, which can contribute to severe behavioral problems.[108] Benoit's father suggests that brain damage may have been the leading cause of the crime.[109] He also confirmed that his son was quietly cremated, but what was done with the ashes is not public knowledge.[110]

 

[Taff]

I watched it last night Al. Some of those videos really make you cringe.

The only thing that crossed my mind was that the programme pointed out the problem, but didn't seem to really tell us how to solve it. :chin:

 

[Davet]

Perhaps life should be made safer?

There is a problem in modern society which is that the evaluation of risk is distorted by the fear of what the risks are. Old ladies refuse to go into town for fear of the "thugs", parents accompany their children everywhere, for fear of "stranger danger".

There are, of course, thugs in our towns and dangerous strangers - but more children are killed by their parents than by strangers, and more old ladies get serious injuries in falls at home than ever get hurt by thugs.

We worry about the things that almost never happen, and take in our stride the common dangers.

 

[OB..]

We worry about the things that almost never happen, and take in our stride the common dangers.

A friend of ours worked in the World Bank in Washington, and his job often took him on overseas trips. The children were at boarding school in England and his wife would take them to and fro across the Atlantic at the beginning and end of each term. It was handy for her to come and stay with us during such trips.

On one occasions his trip coincided with hers, so they both came to stay. I commented that for once it would be nice for them to fly home together.
Her: "Oh, we couldn't do that!"
Me: "Why not?"
Her: "Well, what if the plane crashed?"
Me: "But for years you have been driving around Washingtion in the same car. That is a much higher overall risk."
Her: "That's different"

The difference is, of course, in perception. People give much greater weight to the seriousness of an event than the probability if it happening and are in general very bad in balancing the two. In this case car crashes rarely kill and plane crashes frequently do. Probability does not get a look in.

I have long argued that a basic understanding of risk should be part of all school maths.

 

[gwilw123]

Good documentary, and yes the game needs to change.
The only ways I can think of is making sure players only tackle around the legs, or limiting the size of the players, both of which are unenforcable.
As a referee, do you have the power to order a player from the pitch if you
believe that they are concussed?

 

[nealed]

seems to me that a big problem is the subs
fresh big guy hitting tired player
players know they are going to be subbed and so they also give everything for say 50 mins
i think the subs have made the game much more intense and hence more injury

 

[Jacko]

As a referee, do you have the power to order a player from the pitch if you
believe that they are concussed?

Absolutely.

 

[Rit Hinners]

No..... It needs to be more "dangerous".

I hardly recognise the game anymore.

 

[Simon Thomas]

As a referee, do you have the power to order a player from the pitch if you believe that they are concussed?

As a referee you have the safety of the players as your primary Duty of Care.

If you have any doubts regarding a player's health after an injury, especially if head or neck, off he goes whatever his or her age, however much the player or coach may insist he is ok. I would even have issues with a physio saying someone is ok - a doctor's would be only advice I would take.

If the player is U18 then the slightest concern I have and off the player goes.

 

[Davet]

Good documentary, and yes the game needs to change.

Why? In what way is it too dangerous at the moment?

 

[gwilw123]

The fact that people are still playing even when they have head injuries - there needs to be a better policy re ensuring players only return to the game when they are fit. Also the size of the players nowadays has to increase the danger of injury.

 

[OB..]

No..... It needs to be more "dangerous".

I hardly recognise the game anymore.

 

[Davet]

The fact that people are still playing even when they have head injuries - there needs to be a better policy re ensuring players only return to the game when they are fit.

Do you mean during a game or the rest period enforced at elite level?

During a game then You prevent a player re-taking the field unless You are satisfied he's fit to do so - stuff what the plkayer and his coach say - it's YOUR responsibility, not theirs.

With regard to the enforced rest period following concussion then there is a policy - but if players and coaches conspire to defeat it here is litte you can do. At elite level we do see players who don't seem to have the right rest period, but they will have had expert medical advice and treatment. At grass roots level then my experience is that most players and coaches will enforce a rest period of 2 - 3 weeks.

Also the size of the players nowadays has to increase the danger of injury.

I don't think that follows. And I don't think that at grass roots level the playes are bigger - at elite level maybe, but all the elite players are fit and strong and I don't see any issues arising. The most common serious injury in Rugby, as far as I can see is a knee injury, generally one of the cruciates, or a shoulder injury. This hasn't changed as far as i know for the last 40 years.

Though somne one doubtless has stats....

 

[SimonSmith]

http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/Super14/Physiological-demands-of-rugby-20100302

 

[Dickie E]

During a game then You prevent a player re-taking the field unless You are satisfied he's fit to do so - stuff what the plkayer and his coach say - it's YOUR responsibility, not theirs.

I'm surprised that in your neck of woods it is up to the ref to make a medical decision like this.

 

[Phil E]

I'm surprised that in your neck of woods it is up to the ref to make a medical decision like this.

It's in the LOTG Dickie.

6.A.4 THE DUTIES OF THE REFEREE IN THE PLAYING ENCLOSURE
(e) The referee gives permission to the replacements or substitutes to enter the playing area.

3.9 THE REFEREE’S POWER TO STOP AN INJURED PLAYER FROM
CONTINUING
If the referee decides – with or without the advice of a doctor or other medically qualified
person – that a player is so injured that the player should stop playing, the referee may
order that player to leave the playing area. The referee may also order an injured player to
leave the field in order to be medically examined.

 

[Simon Thomas]

Why the surprise Dickie ?

The referee has responsibility for all players' safety. As ex-players in many cases we will have been there, and know the dangers and players' illogical wish to stay on the pitch. In that key Cup match or League decider, the star centre / flanker takes a head knock and coach and player say he is ok, referee can say "NO WAY off he goes" from a position of Law and objectivity.

In Premiership, Championship and two National League Divisions there will be doctor, physios etc but the lower down the pyramid we go the less likely there is to be anyone at the match with medical training. Perhaps a trainiee physio or a first aider sometimes.

Most of the time, a bang to the head and everyone is sensible and off the player goes, often taken to A&E for a check-up and also does his 2-3 weeks not playing. Refs need to be there for the 1% of cases where player tries to carry on.

 

[gillburt]

It's complex and requires change by everyone. Personally, I think the biggest area and way to improve the game is for NGBs to step up their coach and parent education.

There are still too many "win at all costs" coaches and parents in the community game.

I feel that the NGBs are trying to achieve this, but I still feel there is alot more to be done and NGBs need to stand up to those people who won't tow the line. That said, there needs to be more explicit setting out of standards of what is and is not acceptable and what is to be expected in terms of behaviour and skills. NGBs need to work harder to unify their members behind a common set of goals. T

As young as U9s, players are getting stereotyped into positions. Bigger lads are being put into front rows, which means the smaller lads get mullered and so won't go there. That denies both players full development opportunities.

It's too easy for people, including the media, to boil it down to a simplistic "something must be done". Everyone must be prepared to change in order to move the game in whichever direction it needs to go. Until everyone agrees that there is a problem and everyone agrees that change must be made, and everyone agrees that they are both part of the problem and part of the solution, then we won't be able to have a meaningful debate about where it needs to go as it will always be "someone else's problem".

I feel that going forward, the smaller rugby nations are going to be increasingly successful in the professional era, as they will find it easier to create that "common goal" amongst their members.

 

[gwilw123]

Do you mean during a game or the rest period enforced at elite level?

Both - although at grass-roots level it might not be the easiest thing trying to order a player from the field when you have no formal medical training.

On another note - what would you do if the player with suspected concussion refused to leave the field - as a ref you wouldn't want the game to go on as if something did happen then its your neck on the lin, surely?

 

[Phil E]

Both - although at grass-roots level it might not be the easiest thing trying to order a player from the field when you have no formal medical training.

On another note - what would you do if the player with suspected concussion refused to leave the field - as a ref you wouldn't want the game to go on as if something did happen then its your neck on the lin, surely?

As I quoted above the ref has the authority to refuse permission for a player to continue.

If the player refuses, then you speak to the coach, inform him of your concerns and decision, and state that the game will not continue until the player leaves the pitch. If the player continues to refuse then you have no option but to abandon the match.