Documentary - Should rugby be made safer?

PaulDG


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Both - although at grass-roots level it might not be the easiest thing trying to order a player from the field when you have no formal medical training.

Actually, it's quite easy. I've done it several times. Remember you don't have to justify your opinion to anyone!

On another note - what would you do if the player with suspected concussion refused to leave the field - as a ref you wouldn't want the game to go on as if something did happen then its your neck on the lin, surely?

You'd do the same thing you'd do if any other of your decisions are ignored.

The game stops until your decisions are obeyed. If the players choose to continue to ignore you, to leave the pitch.
 

Simon Thomas


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What Phil E and PaulDG both said.

It is non-negotiable. If I as referee (or any of our Society's members) ask for a player to be removed on the basis of suspected injury to head and neck especially there would be 100% support by Society Committee and RFU Refs Dept.
 

ballsie

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Gents its not what you do its how you do it, ordering any one off the pitch is always going to be a tough call, I had to ask a player to leave a couple of seasons ago during a league game in the county, the coach was raging saying I couldnt do it, the player however was quite happy to leave, a reminder that we all had to go to work on monday morning proved to be effective in convincing him it would be unwise to carry on.
The coach remainded unconvinced as was unhappy to lose his star back row player,,, dont bottle it if you are unhappy get him/her of the pitch once they have left they have a certain amount of responsibility to themselves ie unless they are under 18 wether they seek medical advice is up to them..
Talk to the captain spread the responsibiliy around
 

Dickie E


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While I accept what LoTG say and concept of "better safe than sorry", would a referee in realty be expected to over-rule the opinion of a trained first aider or doctor?
 

Simon Thomas


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Dickie - no one is suggested that we do over-rule them.

If a doctor tells me the player is ok to continue, I will confirm that back to him "so you are telling me that in your professional opnion as a doctor that this player after a head / neck injury is fit to continue playing in this match ?". Said in front of witnesses, I have covered my liability for Duty of Care as a referee.

A trained first aider is a different matter and I would over-rule then if I felt it necessary. Just watch the injured player leap up recovered when they see St Johns Ambulance staff approaching ! :D
 

dave_clark


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so, do you have to know that they are a doctor or can you merely take their word for it?

or are you only talking about the level of match that would have official match doctors?
 

Blindpugh


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Interesting documentary... I recommend you watch if you have a spare half hour... Originally aired on BBC One Wales - 27/7/10.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00t941n/Week_In_Week_Out_The_Pain_Game/

Very interesting documentary and one that highlights the need for better training, medical provision and awareness at the Community Level of the game.

The 31 year old school teacher was not aware of the consequences of repeated (30) concussions until he was tested by professionals. The level he was playing at is typical community rugby and to be club "physio" all you need to do is be able to adminster wet sponge to back of the neck if not sure of injured area.:wow: :nono: :D

I felt very sorry for the Blundell parents who lost their son because he died as a result of an incorrect execution of a tackle i.e. head down. I agree with David Pickering that this was a technical and training issue caused by trying to tackle around the legs. Best advice I was given as a coach of under 9 - 12's was to spend 20 mins each session on giving players the confidence to tackle properly i.e. ring of steel etc.

The modern game has changed tremendously since JPR's and my day as the documentary highlighted but this is largely down to better condition training. Whilst coaching at community level has improved I wonder what systems are in place for dealing with someone who has suffered a bang to the head? As a referee I complete a Serious Injury Report when I know a player has been taken away by Ambulance or driven to hospital and send it to my society.

As well as clubs having a duty of care, players also have a duty of care and need better education to recognise signs of concussion and not leave it up to physio or referee
 

gillburt


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Whilst coaching at community level has improved I wonder what systems are in place for dealing with someone who has suffered a bang to the head?

Thankfully there are plenty of systems in place for dealing with someone who has suffered a bang to the head.

Problems can arise in getting coaches/parents/players to follow them properly. There's a multitude of reasons why any one of them will turn or feel pressured to turn a blind eye at an (in)appropriate time.
 

PaulDG


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Whilst coaching at community level has improved I wonder what systems are in place for dealing with someone who has suffered a bang to the head? As a referee I complete a Serious Injury Report when I know a player has been taken away by Ambulance or driven to hospital and send it to my society.

In RFU land, clubs are supposed to report serious injuries (there's a definition of this which I think is "overnight stay in hospital" or an injury that means the player misses work or school) to the RFU.

There's no obligation for referees to report anything, though it's not a bad idea to write up your version of events and either post it to yourself in an envelope you keep sealed or to email it to the society secretary who can then, if necessary attest to the fact that she/he received the account of events at the time of the incident.
 

PaulDG


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Thankfully there are plenty of systems in place for dealing with someone who has suffered a bang to the head.

Problems can arise in getting coaches/parents/players to follow them properly. There's a multitude of reasons why any one of them will turn or feel pressured to turn a blind eye at an (in)appropriate time.

Exactly.

Coaches will often want the player to "play on" as they may feel it's best for the player's confidence.

Parents may want the player to play on because they know the kid will be heart-broken to be off for some important match and will be a grumpy git for the rest of the week!

It's not just about winning matches. (Though it is about not understanding the potential seriousness of the situation - a bit like the way people who'd never get on a motorbike in the UK under any circumstances whatsoever will hire mopeds in the Greek islands and ride them on unfamiliar roads, with different traffic laws and with no protective gear whatsoever - just a T-shirt and shorts - just because they're "on holiday".)
 

Dickie E


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Remember you don't have to justify your opinion to anyone!

I hope there's some element of rhetoric in this statement :nono:
 

Enrique


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In our union (Buenos Aires -- URBA) and, AFAIK, all other Argentine unions, there is a strictly enforced golden rule: "no doctor, no match". No match can start if there is not a doctor (and some standard emergency equipment, as a rigid stretcher, neck immobilizers) in the perimeter area. This rule applies to all levels of game, from juniors to elite seniors. It is the duty of the local club to provide the doctor, notwithstanding the right of the visitor team to have their own. If the 'doc' is not there, and has not signed (and stamped with his/her seal) the match card, your duty as a ref is to call the match over, and the local team loses by default. The ref must state this on the match card and leave the premises as soon as practicable: if you remain at the local club premises, and the game is played anyways despite the prohibition, you, the ref, could be found liable for any injuries and, in any case, will receive a (hard, really hard) punishment from the Society.

It is the doctor's duty to write and sign a note on the match card if any serious injury occurs, and the ref's duty to enforce that rule. Since there is not a good definition on how serious is "serious", our usual practice is to ask the doctor to write down the primary diagnosis for any injury forcing a player to leave the field of play for the rest of the match.

Having the doctor there is a great help for us, since we can always have professional advice if an injury occurs. You have always the power to overrule the doctor's professional opinion, but only on the "safe" side: you can't allow a player to keep playing on against medical advice.
 

nealed


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Enrique that sounds like the "gold standard"
now what is the cost?
how much for equipment?
how much do the Drs get paid?
say on a sunday when we have 5 junior teams playing, would 1 doctor be enough to cover all games?
I would be interested to see what would happen if we insisted on such in the country
still its there for boxing, why not?
 

PaulDG


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In our union (Buenos Aires -- URBA) and, AFAIK, all other Argentine unions, there is a strictly enforced golden rule: "no doctor, no match". No match can start if there is not a doctor

We don't have enough referees to go round, let alone enough doctors.

If we were to implement this in England, the cost would be bigger than the RFU's budget - doctors are hundreds of pounds an hour.

And there'd be hell to pay politically - anyone experiencing treatment delays (i.e. everyone) in the NHS would blame rugby as they'd say all the doctors were out doing easy private work at rugby clubs.

Utterly unrealistic on this Island!
 

Blindpugh


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In RFU land, clubs are supposed to report serious injuries (there's a definition of this which I think is "overnight stay in hospital" or an injury that means the player misses work or school) to the RFU.

There's no obligation for referees to report anything, though it's not a bad idea to write up your version of events and either post it to yourself in an envelope you keep sealed or to email it to the society secretary who can then, if necessary attest to the fact that she/he received the account of events at the time of the incident.

PaulDG I have been with Hampshire for nearly 10 years now and every season referees are reminded to complete serious injury form (available on HRURS website) if player is taken away by ambulance. This is to cover both player and referee in the event of an insurance claim. If in doubt I complete and send to society so that everyone is covered.

My previous posts are directed at the adult game. At junior level my experience is that clubs nowadays are generally well organised.

I agree that financially it would be impossible to have a Doctor (or even a physio) at Abersychan 4ths vs Old Bristolians 5ths but I question the level of support provided at this level of the game.

I have little involvement at club level at present and I hope that for players welfare my observations are wrong
 

Enrique


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Enrique that sounds like the "gold standard"
now what is the cost?
how much for equipment?
how much do the Drs get paid?
say on a sunday when we have 5 junior teams playing, would 1 doctor be enough to cover all games?
I would be interested to see what would happen if we insisted on such in the country
still its there for boxing, why not?

Unfortunately, the cost is significant. But the union helps, using the money from the TV contracts and sponsorships.
  • Stretchers and a full set of immobilizers were provided by the Union to the clubs at no cost (the union made a bulk purchase, got a custom duties exemption, and some financial support from the Secretary of Sports)
  • Doctors' fees are, I guess, much less expensive than in England, but still the main burden on the clubs' budgets. Some clubs (particularly those with many sports) have full time doctors. A number of doctors (former or even current players, parents, rugby fans) donate their Saturdays or Sundays. After all, at least here, rugby is mostly a volunteer-driven sport -- and the doctor can subtract the amount of his/her donation from income tax. Other clubs, finally, are less lucky and have to pay; they pay more or less the same amount that a doctor would get for equivalent guard duty in a hospital or private clinic. I don't know the exact amount, but will ask and report again.
  • Yes, a doctor usually covers all the day's games (about 6 hours in the worst case)
As usually said, "your mileage may vary" and I don't know if a similar scheme could be used in England. But as you say, it's there for boxing...
 

OB..


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"If I were going there, I wouldn't start from here". However being there is obviously rather good.

Trying to convert the English set-up to the Argentine one for providing doctors or the Australian one for providing referees would be a mammoth task with unpredictable side-effects. Will Australia copy Argentina? Will Argentina copy Australia? (Or do they already?)
 

gwilw123

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One of the people I play rugby with came from South Africa a few years ago, and said that a school 1st XV game wasn't allowed to start unless there was an ambulance and paramedic present.

I can see the logic in this but can't see how the RFU or any home union would be able to fund this.
 

nealed


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One of the people I play rugby with came from South Africa a few years ago, and said that a school 1st XV game wasn't allowed to start unless there was an ambulance and paramedic present.

I can see the logic in this but can't see how the RFU or any home union would be able to fund this.

why not?
clearly other countries can and take the safety issue very seriously
maybe resources should be diverted?
 

menace


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After seeing a compond fracture of a finger from a charge down in a 1st XV school game on the weekend (I was AR) I bet the kid wished there was a doctor/ambo close by for the happy juice! (ouch - not even the trained first aiders wanted to touch that one!)

PS to add insult to injury he was yellow carded for deliberate infringement - offside a mile.
 
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