Does ball going into touch put everyone onside?

[Taff]

... I saw this in the Pink v Tiggers game yesterday, Pink stopping a QTI as the player "up field" was only a few yards from where it went into touch after a 40m+ kick, it looked wrong, but nothing was said by any officials and no complaint from the players, but had the QTI been taken it would have been an interesting situation.....

Did the Pink players comply with the 10m Law?

 

[TheBFG]

No, the Pink player just held his ground (slow returning Fwd I think?)

 

[crossref]

No, the Pink player just held his ground (slow returning Fwd I think?)

he presumably held his ground precisely in order to be in the right place to contest the QTI. Why wouldn't you?

of course in open play an offside player is entitled to merely stand still (10m law, yada yada yes) but he's NOT entitled to interfere with play until he's put on side... So we return right back to the nub of this, was he put onside when the ball went out.

 

[Thunderhorse1986]

And just be standing still he may be "interfering" by making the team hesitate or refrain completely from taking the QTI.

 

[Taff]

And just be standing still he may be "interfering" by making the team hesitate or refrain completely from taking the QTI.

Exactly.

... So we return right back to the nub of this, was he put onside when the ball went out.

We're going to have to wait for this clarification mate. :biggrin:

 

[TheBFG]

So we return right back to the nub of this, was he put onside when the ball went out.

WHICH IS WHERE I CAME INTO THIS CONVERSATION!!!!!!! :wink:

Anyone know where there is a full replay of this match, i'll find the scenario and post a link......

 

[crossref]

this must be it

 

[TheBFG]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d03yoS4vSDo&feature=player_detailpage#t=4724

Here you go 65.15 on the match clock.

Now I've watched it again there is a bit of pointing from Tiggers.......

 

[crossref]

great video.

so
- as the ball is kicked, many pink players are moving backwards, some are still
- when the ball is kicked they all stop moving (good)
- under 10m law the foremost pink player should really have retreated about a metre - seeing as he is about 9m from where the ball went into touch... need to assess how material that is
- as soon as the ball crosses the plane of touch, pink player moves forward to defend the QTI.

It would be a great video to submit to SA referees (or somewhere) as a question : was he allowed to defend the QTI?

 

[ChrisR]

Great clip, perfect illustration of the issue.

You could make a case that all Pinks ahead of the 50 should have been retiring before the ball is caught in touch.

But the primary question remains: Does the ball going into touch end all offsides?

 

[Dixie]

Great clip, perfect illustration of the issue.

You could make a case that all Pinks ahead of the 50 should have been retiring before the ball is caught in touch.

But the primary question remains: Does the ball going into touch end all offsides?

No - the law only requires an offside player to retire if he is within 10m of a line across the pitch drawn where the ball would land or be caught. The players offside but behind that line have no obligation to retire, but simply to avoid moving forward. There are two questions:

a) should those within the 10m zone retire, even though the ball will land in touch? and
b) can all other offside players move forward as soon as the ball is in touch?

We don't know the answer to either question, so a reference to SA rugby would be interesting, but only WR can really help - and then only if they don't leave the 12 year-old to do the write-up while they go for a long boozy lunch. SO there's realistically no prospect of this getting sorted at all.

 

[crossref]

you could also ask
- if you are rapidly retiring, but when the ball goes into touch haven't yet reached the imaginary 10m mark you need to get to (don't forget you could be way upfield) .. then again when the ball goes into touch are you OK to contest the QTI now.

 

[The Fat]

The foremost pink player is offside under the 10m law. He waits on the "0" of the "50" pitch mark and then starts moving forward when he realises the ball is going into touch but before it actually does.
Top level match with ARs so what is the referee watching?
We are taught not to watch the ball as we all know "it will eventually come down"
We have an AR watching for the ball going into touch.
The referee should be managing offside players and in this case he has at least 2 (possibly 3, I will need to watch the video again to check that 3rd player's actions) who are offside under the 10m law, BEFORE THE BALL GOES INTO TOUCH, and should be retreating. Both pink players between the 50 and green's 10m have an effect on the potential QTI.
Once the ball has gone into touch, you can see the other pink players, who WERE complying with the requirements of Law 11 prior to the ball crossing the touch line, move quickly towards the LoT. These players are OK to do so. They don't have to wait for either the kicker or a team mate who was behind the kicker to run them onside.
The correct decision should be a PK against the foremost pink player on the "0" of the "50", i.e. at the place where he first infringed the 10m law.

 

[Dickie E]

We don't know the answer to either question, so a reference to SA rugby would be interesting, but only WR can really help -

Or, as we often do, watch & imitate the elite (any new Charlottes in the family )

 

[ChrisR]

An additional concern for those players within the 10m is where to measure the 10m from. Should it be from the point of where the ball comes down or is caught or should it be from where it crosses into touch?

 

[crossref]

The foremost pink player is offside under the 10m law. He waits on the "0" of the "50" pitch mark and then starts moving forward when he realises the ball is going into touch but before it actually does.
Top level match with ARs so what is the referee watching?
We are taught not to watch the ball as we all know "it will eventually come down"
We have an AR watching for the ball going into touch.
The referee should be managing offside players and in this case he has at least 2 (possibly 3, I will need to watch the video again to check that 3rd player's actions) who are offside under the 10m law, BEFORE THE BALL GOES INTO TOUCH, and should be retreating. Both pink players between the 50 and green's 10m have an effect on the potential QTI.
Once the ball has gone into touch, you can see the other pink players, who WERE complying with the requirements of Law 11 prior to the ball crossing the touch line, move quickly towards the LoT. These players are OK to do so. They don't have to wait for either the kicker or a team mate who was behind the kicker to run them onside.
The correct decision should be a PK against the foremost pink player on the "0" of the "50", i.e. at the place where he first infringed the 10m law.

I follow your argument, but is that actually the decision you'd make? on the pitch?
He was 9m from where the ball goes into touch, they key thing here was just about retreating that one metre before advancing again?

 

[Dixie]

Once the ball has gone into touch, you can see the other pink players, who WERE complying with the requirements of Law 11 prior to the ball crossing the touch line, move quickly towards the LoT. These players are OK to do so. They don't have to wait for either the kicker or a team mate who was behind the kicker to run them onside.

Well, let's examine that view.

If the ball going into touch terminates all offside considerations, then of course anyone who was offside before the ball went dead can do what he likes from the moment the ball dies in touch. But as soon as you postulate that a player offside under the 10m law who did not retire can now be held to have interfered with the QTI, and so be held to account for his offside status, then you need to look again at the presumption you make here.

[LAWS]Law 11.1 (a) A player who is in an offside position is liable to sanction only if the player does one of three things:

• Interferes with play or,
• Moves forward, towards the ball or
• Fails to comply with the 10-Metre Law (Law 11.4).[/LAWS]

So as regards the second bullet point, there's no problem with him standing still. But what of the 1st? By standing still in an offside position 10.1m from the line of touch, doesn't he interfere with play?

If the kicker kicked from the goal line and the ball was caught 5m infield on the 10m line, then if the catcher stood still any potential interferer would have to run at least 40m before the catcher needed to do anything, because the offside players are not allowed to interfere. But if the catcher caught it with one foot in touch, then all the offside players can immediately close down his options from as little as 10.01m away. Isn't that interfering with play in the same way as failing to retire under the 10m law?

 

[The Fat]

Well, let's examine that view.

If the ball going into touch terminates all offside considerations, then of course anyone who was offside before the ball went dead can do what he likes from the moment the ball dies in touch. But as soon as you postulate that a player offside under the 10m law who did not retire can now be held to have interfered with the QTI, and so be held to account for his offside status, then you need to look again at the presumption you make here.

[LAWS]Law 11.1 (a) A player who is in an offside position is liable to sanction only if the player does one of three things:

• Interferes with play or,
• Moves forward, towards the ball or
• Fails to comply with the 10-Metre Law (Law 11.4).[/LAWS]

So as regards the second bullet point, there's no problem with him standing still. But what of the 1st? By standing still in an offside position 10.1m from the line of touch, doesn't he interfere with play?

If the kicker kicked from the goal line and the ball was caught 5m infield on the 10m line, then if the catcher stood still any potential interferer would have to run at least 40m before the catcher needed to do anything, because the offside players are not allowed to interfere. But if the catcher caught it with one foot in touch, then all the offside players can immediately close down his options from as little as 10.01m away. Isn't that interfering with play in the same way as failing to retire under the 10m law?

I think I have made my interpretation pretty clear through several posts and have covered what is required by all players ahead of the kicker.
Probably best to now wait for any clarification sought by KML1

 

[Dickie E]

I think I have made my interpretation pretty clear through several posts and have covered what is required by all players ahead of the kicker.
Probably best to now wait for any clarification sought by KML1

If its good enough for George Clancy, its good enough for me