[Law] Does half-time end if PK is kicked dead ? Exeter v Bath

[CrouchTPEngage]

End of first half in the Exeter v Bath semi-final.
Time has expired. ( > 40 mins on click ). Exeter have a man in sin-bin with about 3:30 mins left on that sin-bin time.
A scrum ( which was awarded before the 40 mins was up must be completed). Exeter get a PK at the scrum. They choose to tap it and kick straight out to end the half.
The loction pf the PK was well into Exeter's half and, although not kickable, what if Exeter decided to opt for a kick at goal ? They are entitled to a 60 seconds for this - right ?
They could run down another 1 minute of the yellow-card clock.
Well, that's a risk as, 15-man bath could catch the attempt and attack. However, what if Exeter knew they had a big kicker and , even if the posts are missed, they can kick the ball dead.
Does the ball going dead (over the dead ball line ) end the half ?
The law-book only mentions that a PK kicked "directly" to touch, does not end a half.
But what about "kicked directly dead" ?

 

[Blackberry]

Is the issue that they tapped it first?

 

[Decorily]

Simple answer to your question is YES....the half ends when the ball is kicked dead.

 

[beckett50]

End of first half in the Exeter v Bath semi-final.
Time has expired. ( > 40 mins on click ). Exeter have a man in sin-bin with about 3:30 mins left on that sin-bin time.
A scrum ( which was awarded before the 40 mins was up must be completed). Exeter get a PK at the scrum. They choose to tap it and kick straight out to end the half.
The loction pf the PK was well into Exeter's half and, although not kickable, what if Exeter decided to opt for a kick at goal ? They are entitled to a 60 seconds for this - right ?
They could run down another 1 minute of the yellow-card clock.
Well, that's a risk as, 15-man bath could catch the attempt and attack. However, what if Exeter knew they had a big kicker and , even if the posts are missed, they can kick the ball dead.
Does the ball going dead (over the dead ball line ) end the half ?
The law-book only mentions that a PK kicked "directly" to touch, does not end a half.
But what about "kicked directly dead" ?

In their efforts to 'simplify' the Laws the iRB have created some confusions.

Fair question bearing in mind the ball can "kicked directly dead" if there is a genuine attempt at goal that misses the post and the ball goes over the dead-ball line. However, I would argue that this is not "directly dead", because although the ball hasn't been touched or bounced into dead a genuine attempt at goal has been made (IIRC there was a clarification on this a few years back).

The only question comes if the team awarded the PK make a kick for field position and the kicker over cooks the kick and the ball goes into touch in the In-Goal area. I would suggest that in this instance the ball is still alive and the defending team get the 'option'.

 

[Dickie E]

From Law 5:

[LAWS]A half ends when the ball becomes dead after time has expired unless:
A penalty is kicked directly to touch without the ball first being tapped and without the ball touching another player. [/LAWS]

so over DBL or touch in goal doesn't count.

Note too that the PK has to be DIRECT to touch (ie doesn't bounce into touch).

 

[Ian_Cook]

I have another similar one that happened in a local Club Rugby game last weekend.

Full time is up on the clock, as Red are awarded a PK. They want to play-on try to get a losing bonus point. Red player kicked to the corner, and Gold player jumps in the FOP and manages to tap the ball but it deflects off his hand into touch. Referee blows full time; howls from the (red supporting home) crowd.

Referee tells Red captain (not an exact quote) '....to play-on with the line-out, your man has to put the ball into touch. He didn't, their man did'

Is he right?

 

[Dickie E]

Is he right?

works for me.

PS: did you enjoy the Test?

 

[Ian_Cook]

works for me.

PS: did you enjoy the Test?

It was fantastic... one of the best.

 

[Dickie E]

It was fantastic... one of the best.

and a faultless display from the officials :

 

[Ian_Cook]

and a faultless display from the officials :

View attachment 4046

That's your boy who missed that!

 

[Dickie E]

That's your boy who missed that!

yeah, and they're upgrading him to whistle duty next week :redface:

 

[crossref]

I have another similar one that happened in a local Club Rugby game last weekend.

Full time is up on the clock, as Red are awarded a PK. They want to play-on try to get a losing bonus point. Red player kicked to the corner, and Gold player jumps in the FOP and manages to tap the ball but it deflects off his hand into touch. Referee blows full time; howls from the (red supporting home) crowd.

Referee tells Red captain (not an exact quote) '....to play-on with the line-out, your man has to put the ball into touch. He didn't, their man did'

Is he right?

Yes...

 

[chbg]

From Law 5:

[LAWS]A half ends when the ball becomes dead after time has expired unless:
A penalty is kicked directly to touch without the ball first being tapped and without the ball touching another player. [/LAWS]

so over DBL or touch in goal doesn't count.

Note too that the PK has to be DIRECT to touch (ie doesn't bounce into touch).

A very good point. Thank you.

 

[Flish]

Have never considered a genuine PK at the posts when time is over, I think I would have blown for time as soon as the ball went over the DBL (scored or otherwise) and I think that would be the expectation - are we saying that’s incorrect? Or correct in reality but not on paper, technically?

The law quote says ‘touch’ not ‘touch in goal’ or ‘dead’ so I think my expectation is correct?

In Ian’s example about ending the game, totally happy with that.

 

[CrouchTPEngage]

So the conclusion is that ,as per my original post - rather than tap then kick directly to touch, it would be a good tactic to go for a kick at.goal to get the additional 60 seconds run down of the sin bin clock... Interesting . Thanks!

 

[Dickie E]

So the conclusion is that ,as per my original post - rather than tap then kick directly to touch, it would be a good tactic to go for a kick at.goal to get the additional 60 seconds run down of the sin bin clock... Interesting . Thanks!

as long as you can live with the risk of the ball not going dead (falling short, hitting woodwork, etc)

 

[CrouchTPEngage]

From Law 5:

[LAWS]A half ends when the ball becomes dead after time has expired unless:
A penalty is kicked directly to touch without the ball first being tapped and without the ball touching another player. [/LAWS]

so over DBL or touch in goal doesn't count.

Note too that the PK has to be DIRECT to touch (ie doesn't bounce into touch).

Just to double check that. The law doesn't mention anything about a bounce. It just says about not being touched by another ok layer. Just wondered if others are also interpreting that word 'direcly' to mean 'mist not bounce ' Thanks

 

[Ian_Cook]

So the conclusion is that ,as per my original post - rather than tap then kick directly to touch, it would be a good tactic to go for a kick at.goal to get the additional 60 seconds run down of the sin bin clock... Interesting . Thanks!

If you wanted run down the sin-bin clock, and didn't want to kick for touch, why not take a scrum. They're usually good for wasting a few minutes!

 

[crossref]

Just to double check that. The law doesn't mention anything about a bounce. It just says about not being touched by another ok layer. Just wondered if others are also interpreting that word 'direcly' to mean 'mist not bounce ' Thanks

It's in the definitions (and used consistently)

[LAWS].Kicked directly into touch: The ball is kicked into touch without first landing on the
playing area or touching a player or the referee. [/LAWS]

 

[didds]

Note too that the PK has to be DIRECT to touch (ie doesn't bounce into touch).

Yup. And as debated before this is totally nonsensical

didds