As a non ex-pack player, can anyone give me a bit of advice about deciding who is responsible for the early shove. I know it always looks like the team moving forward, but then the team moving backwards maybe not taking the hit well and making it look like an early shove ?
Early Shove - Who is to blame?
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First think where on pitch you are and what has been scrum history so far.
Have they been winning own ball, who might benefit from an early shove, etc
Look for feet positions of second rows and FRs, look for the early 'nudge' before or as SH presents the ball, tightening of second row bindings, etc.
Also be very aware of a side not 'taking the hit' - just look at FR body language and how they engage and bind - can be hints if you look carefully.
Insist on the scrum being static - point out where they have ended up and try to manage it.
Have they been winning own ball, who might benefit from an early shove, etc
Look for feet positions of second rows and FRs, look for the early 'nudge' before or as SH presents the ball, tightening of second row bindings, etc.
Also be very aware of a side not 'taking the hit' - just look at FR body language and how they engage and bind - can be hints if you look carefully.
Insist on the scrum being static - point out where they have ended up and try to manage it.
Emmet Murphy
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"Taking the hit" is a bit of a grey area because theoretically there shouldn't be a hit to take (so to speak) until the ball comes in! Having said that, if you feel a FR are genuinely struggling with that aspect of the engagement sequence then look at how they are bound to each other. Don't be afraid (especially in Youth matches) to bring them up and talk them through the process of binding onto each other so they go down as one unit instead of three individuals.
ex-lucy
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do the props have a straight back?
if bent and scrum goes backwards.. they are probably prepared to take a hit but back off slowly or twist.
also arms ... if not correctly bound, they may be in a position to pull i.e. thp bent arm down on lucy's bicep or side of lucy's body and pulling round.
i guess it's tough to recognise ... props should be all sinews and muscles etc strained at the hit .. ready for the push as the ball comes in. ST's body language. any muscles not strained will mean they go backwards...
first time it happens and you suspect backing off not taking the hit: warn them and say you want them ready at the hit to push.
if bent and scrum goes backwards.. they are probably prepared to take a hit but back off slowly or twist.
also arms ... if not correctly bound, they may be in a position to pull i.e. thp bent arm down on lucy's bicep or side of lucy's body and pulling round.
i guess it's tough to recognise ... props should be all sinews and muscles etc strained at the hit .. ready for the push as the ball comes in. ST's body language. any muscles not strained will mean they go backwards...
first time it happens and you suspect backing off not taking the hit: warn them and say you want them ready at the hit to push.
ex-lucy
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dunno which one you mean, exactly.
if it was the one i think - against Baxter .. i thought actually it was a case of Baxter was pinged for his previous misdemeanours and Lewis got bored and fed up.
From my pov NZ loosehead brough it down .... but Lewis had to make a firm decision bec of previous collapses.
Scrums were a problem for most of the match.
i thought that the pitch surface didnt help, hence his leniency to start with (probably) but then he got back on top.
if it was the one i think - against Baxter .. i thought actually it was a case of Baxter was pinged for his previous misdemeanours and Lewis got bored and fed up.
From my pov NZ loosehead brough it down .... but Lewis had to make a firm decision bec of previous collapses.
Scrums were a problem for most of the match.
i thought that the pitch surface didnt help, hence his leniency to start with (probably) but then he got back on top.
I'm thinking myself through what I'm going to do about scrum management in my first game. My only experience is reading what is on this site, ELRA mock up and DVD.
U've decided to focus an three things as there is a lot I won't see due to inexperience:
1) make sure font rows are not to far apart to avoid any 'battering rams' (but not too close so they nut each other on 'crouch'
2)no shove until ball in
3) 9 to get ball in quick on engagement
4) whistle if shoving starts before ball in and have quick word.
Does this sound reasonable as a newbie approach -any comments appreciated.
U've decided to focus an three things as there is a lot I won't see due to inexperience:
1) make sure font rows are not to far apart to avoid any 'battering rams' (but not too close so they nut each other on 'crouch'
2)no shove until ball in
3) 9 to get ball in quick on engagement
4) whistle if shoving starts before ball in and have quick word.
Does this sound reasonable as a newbie approach -any comments appreciated.
To add to ex-lucy's comments - if the scrum wheels, the answer to why will be in the outside legs and the tightheads' biceps. In theory, a prop can scrummage on their inside leg only - so if their outside leg is winging out and driving into the scrum then they are trying to get illegal leverage. If a loosehead is able to get a full driving angle under and against a tighthead, then there will be a wheel/pop. Illegal wheel the other way (pull) can be seen by watching what the tighthead's bicep/legs are doing.
Simonsky,
I think you are worrying too much about your first game.
Scrums aren't that difficult to ensure they are safe (main priority)
Distance - the Touch phase is key here. Straight or slightly bent arms to touch the SHOULDER of the oppo prop.
No Shove to the ball is in - Don't move away from the tunnel until it IS stable. Blow whistle and reset if necessary. Once they realise that the ball isn't coming until until it is stable - you are less likely to have a problem.
Ball in quickly once you've moved away (not on the engagement)
SMILE at ALL times.
If you get problems there are few things to watch:
On whose put in is it okay? They are the team messing up the other put in!
But the thing to remember is: Is it safe. If yes, then don't worry too much at letting it go - the props at this level will enjoy being ale to "cheat" a little. They generally can't run, and wrestling in the scrum is their exercise (and keeps them out your waty at rucks!) As you gain experience you will get the confidence to look out for more....
I think you are worrying too much about your first game.
Scrums aren't that difficult to ensure they are safe (main priority)
Distance - the Touch phase is key here. Straight or slightly bent arms to touch the SHOULDER of the oppo prop.
No Shove to the ball is in - Don't move away from the tunnel until it IS stable. Blow whistle and reset if necessary. Once they realise that the ball isn't coming until until it is stable - you are less likely to have a problem.
Ball in quickly once you've moved away (not on the engagement)
SMILE at ALL times.
If you get problems there are few things to watch:
On whose put in is it okay? They are the team messing up the other put in!
But the thing to remember is: Is it safe. If yes, then don't worry too much at letting it go - the props at this level will enjoy being ale to "cheat" a little. They generally can't run, and wrestling in the scrum is their exercise (and keeps them out your waty at rucks!) As you gain experience you will get the confidence to look out for more....
Simonsky, sounds good. Think also about the pre match chat and the messages there.
I like to talk to the front row first in the comms pre match. Things I ALWAYS say;
1. You will receive one invitation and three commands - crouch only when you are comfortable and ready to scrummage. My hand will not be in the eyeline of anyone.
2. At scrum time, you have a direct line to me - if you are concerned, say so.
3. (To the hooker) I'm happy if you're happy - let's make eye contact at the first few scrums to make sure that everything's safe up front. [needless to say, this doesn't happen - but it's important that they know they are in safe hands].
4. I didn't get this neck from eating chips, gentlemen. Start any funny business up front and I will know it and I will deal with it. Binds high and true - drive forwards or go backwards - NOT up or down.
5. Enjoy gents, have a good game.
We also chat about lineouts of course.
I like to talk to the front row first in the comms pre match. Things I ALWAYS say;
1. You will receive one invitation and three commands - crouch only when you are comfortable and ready to scrummage. My hand will not be in the eyeline of anyone.
2. At scrum time, you have a direct line to me - if you are concerned, say so.
3. (To the hooker) I'm happy if you're happy - let's make eye contact at the first few scrums to make sure that everything's safe up front. [needless to say, this doesn't happen - but it's important that they know they are in safe hands].
4. I didn't get this neck from eating chips, gentlemen. Start any funny business up front and I will know it and I will deal with it. Binds high and true - drive forwards or go backwards - NOT up or down.
5. Enjoy gents, have a good game.
We also chat about lineouts of course.
TheBFG
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Simon, as this is a “friendly” there shouldn't be too much to worry about, it’s unlikely there will be any deliberate funny stuff and if there is (taking it low etc..) it’s probably going to be done with a smile on their faces.
That said in the first few exchanges make sure you look out for any silly buggers that think they have a score to settle!
Although this is a friendly make sure you let them know you want your instruction followed for the CTPE, my advice would be, as long as they follow that and there’s no other silly business I’d let them get on with it and only blow if there is a major problem or it goes 90.
Like FF said, make sure they are close and this will stop them getting a head of steam up for the engage.
Have fun and enjoy it, and remember to keep a smile on yer face!
That said in the first few exchanges make sure you look out for any silly buggers that think they have a score to settle!
Although this is a friendly make sure you let them know you want your instruction followed for the CTPE, my advice would be, as long as they follow that and there’s no other silly business I’d let them get on with it and only blow if there is a major problem or it goes 90.
Like FF said, make sure they are close and this will stop them getting a head of steam up for the engage.
Have fun and enjoy it, and remember to keep a smile on yer face!
Lee Lifeson-Peart
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I FKed maroon (purple, red etc) last night for an early engage they went on on ssss of pause. 5m scrum black put in. (defending).
I've never had a lot of scrum reset trouble my main one is the revolving scrum which I penalise if I see the telltale signs my Premiership Prop friend advised. Feet, Arms etc.
"You're guessing - you haven't got a clue" said the last victim. "No, but I've got a whistle!" :biggrin:
I've never had a lot of scrum reset trouble my main one is the revolving scrum which I penalise if I see the telltale signs my Premiership Prop friend advised. Feet, Arms etc.
"You're guessing - you haven't got a clue" said the last victim. "No, but I've got a whistle!" :biggrin:
Have fun and enjoy it, and remember to keep a smile on yer face!
Thanks for advice BFG, GabboC&Flip flop - I'm not as worried as I might sound just wanted to quell a few last minute niggles and it helps to hear the voice of experience
-thanks.
I'm still looking forward to it! I've been practising with whiste (must disconcert neighbours) tones. On that note (no pun intended) I've been thinking about the final whistle -I sometimes hear refs doing: loud and short, followed by loud with a bit of a crescendo at end -any preferences?
AlanT
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Hang on there!
Two of the trickier games I have reffed have been friendlies - mostly due the the fact that I went into them to ref them as friendlies, rather than as a normal match.
I recommend going into every match as if it's a promotion match or cup semi-final.
On the other hand, the only other senior friendly I've done was a real pleasure played in great spirit.
I'm sure they've given you one of the latter
TheBFG
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Which is why i added this bit!
Oh i've had a few turn nasty too, all good fun though and beers all around in the bar after:wink:
Dixie
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Sounds good to me. I particularly like the bit in red. You will not be Alain Rolland or Craig Joubert on your first outing. You will make mistakes, and in doing so you will be just like every other ref who has ever done their first game. The worst mistake you can make is to allow the teams to tell you all about your other mistakes - penalising criticism of your performance is the easiest correct decision you will be able to make on the day - so get it right every time!I'm thinking myself through what I'm going to do about scrum management in my first game. My only experience is reading what is on this site, ELRA mock up and DVD.
I've decided to focus an three things as there is a lot I won't see due to inexperience:
1) make sure font rows are not to far apart to avoid any 'battering rams' (but not too close so they nut each other on 'crouch'
2)no shove until ball in
3) 9 to get ball in quick on engagement
4) whistle if shoving starts before ball in and have quick word.
Does this sound reasonable as a newbie approach -any comments appreciated.
Good luck. Smile, and enjoy!
Simonsky
As this will be your first match, you'll miss about 99% of what's going on.
Your brain will be in a tizz, your heart a flutter, your lungs busting and your ears under assault (probably)
You'll be running around thinking "I missed x" "I missed y"....
Don't worry too much about the detail.
For my first few games I focussed on the following and found I could "see" more with experience as the pics built up.
Game 1 & 2
CTPE
Straight (ish) put in
opp SH offside
No.8 doing the ol' catapult engage after everyone else has engaged
Scrum wheel
Game 3
As Game 1, plus
Looking for Flankers and opp SH playing silly buggers with each other (blocking, tripping, biding)
Props not binding at all
Early strike
Game 4 & 5
As 1-3, plus
Props pulling down
SH dummy for ball out
Early shove (a bit)
And so on.. it builds up with each game. You find you're taking more in and seeing more each time.
My next focus is on my positioning at the scrum.... now I have the confidence that if I step more than 1 m from the scrum the players WON'T instantly burst into flames...
But, good luck!!!
As this will be your first match, you'll miss about 99% of what's going on.
Your brain will be in a tizz, your heart a flutter, your lungs busting and your ears under assault (probably)
You'll be running around thinking "I missed x" "I missed y"....
Don't worry too much about the detail.
For my first few games I focussed on the following and found I could "see" more with experience as the pics built up.
Game 1 & 2
CTPE
Straight (ish) put in
opp SH offside
No.8 doing the ol' catapult engage after everyone else has engaged
Scrum wheel
Game 3
As Game 1, plus
Looking for Flankers and opp SH playing silly buggers with each other (blocking, tripping, biding)
Props not binding at all
Early strike
Game 4 & 5
As 1-3, plus
Props pulling down
SH dummy for ball out
Early shove (a bit)
And so on.. it builds up with each game. You find you're taking more in and seeing more each time.
My next focus is on my positioning at the scrum.... now I have the confidence that if I step more than 1 m from the scrum the players WON'T instantly burst into flames...
But, good luck!!!