extra player

[Browner]

Agree with Jacko. Fulltime has been called, the ref cannot do anything except note it on the game sheet / alert comp organiser.

I now am aware of the Law ruling, but I'd offer that most organisers in 'social tournos' as per OP would avoid the subject and simply refer to the referee having ending the game.

This is akin to " talk to me in the bar" , it seems like an unsatisfactory way to conclude following the 'additional player' last minute involvement which (in the case of the OP) sounded like it had an impact.

I feel that an immediate rectification would be better if possible.
...........
Interestingly Kaplan became aware of Lugers pitch encroachment having just awarded a PK, we'll never know whether a PK would have followed Lugers removal had he been notified by the AR at say... the next scrum.

Hmmnn, if you spot the opposition doing the same, deliberately punt the ball as far downfield /close to the oppositions posts as possible.... and then tell the ref !

 

[crossref]

I have once given a PK for extra player on the pitch and I did indeed convert a scrum into a PK.

Indeed what caused me to notice the extra player was the confusion amongst one side as nine players attempted to form a scrum

 

[Browner]

Last saturdays game, L9, Red leading by 8pts as clock heads towards end of match. Blue attacking & desperate for an opportunity to kick 3 pts To give them a losing bonus point.

Reds awarded a PK with c.15s on the clock ( they signal for a replacement to come on ) I'm aware of the time wasting aspect so tell them that clock will stop to allow replacement to happen. When Red captain hears this he says, "forget the replacement - we'll carry on and kick for touch" I say "good - there will be time for the line out"

As Red kicker takes the kick to touch Mr Intended Replacement has wandered 5m onto playing area expecting to see his teammate swap & leave the field ( this disorganised organisation isn't uncommon at this level!) but he's soon told by his teammates that he isn't needed so he immediately trudges off the c.5m or so....

Blue captain sees/hears this and says "they have16 players -we'll have the PK please sir" ....... I decline his request saying " no capt, he was already leaving the field of his own accord" but i retained some admiration for his attempt.

So, although the 16th player was fleetingly present, and he was 'probably' on the playing surface as the kick was executed ( can't be 100% sure , but more likely than not I'd say) ,was I wrong in not giving Blues the 'cheap' kickable penalty attempt?

I'm still oscilating with this one ......

 

[FlipFlop]

I sounds like the player didn't make any impact on the game. Didn't take the kick etc.

I think you get the empathy part right, and is what most refs would have done, but technically it should have been a PK to blue. Not saying it would be right to award it though.

Also - time is always allowed (stopped) for replacements. So why the different treatment. I would have just stopped the watch, ensured change was correct, restarted and got on with the game. Why the comment to them etc. And once the replacement signalled, I'm not then letting them decide not to do it, just because the time is off. At that point I would be tempted (but only tempted) to FK them for wasting time, and pissing me around.

 

[didds]

what real and actual issue did it create ? did it provide them with an extra man in attack? Did it fill a hole in defense?

No.

It was in reality no different than him jogging on to collect an errant spare ball.



didds

 

[Browner]

I sounds like the player didn't make any impact on the game. Didn't take the kick etc.

I think you get the empathy part right, and is what most refs would have done, but technically it should have been a PK to blue. Not saying it would be right to award it though.

Also - time is always allowed (stopped) for replacements. So why the different treatment. I would have just stopped the watch, ensured change was correct, restarted and got on with the game. Why the comment to them etc. And once the replacement signalled, I'm not then letting them decide not to do it, just because the time is off. At that point I would be tempted (but only tempted) to FK them for wasting time, and pissing me around.

re: time. The way I manage it is ... captains are told pre match to let me know when a replacement is ready to come on the pitch , then at the next or this stoppage the interchange can invariably happen quickly/smoothly without any clock stopping. I think I need to read up on this,if I'm out of step with this level?

Re: Replacement cancelled
If your tempted 'only', then why mention this ???!??!!

 

[Browner]

what real and actual issue did it create ? did it provide them with an extra man in attack? Did it fill a hole in defense?

No.

It was in reality no different than him jogging on to collect an errant spare ball.



didds

Which is kinda how I saw it. Immaterial #s error.

 

[Treadmore]

I'm still oscilating with this one ......

How many substitutes keeping active in the in-goal and thus on the playing area do you see in elite games? Seems like all of them all the time to me!

 

[Na Madrai]

Had two very similiar instances in a recent colts' match. Home team, white, winning convincingly against red, who had only fourteen players.

White six is yellow carded. With one minute left on his clock, as is my custom, I inform his skipper that his time is almost up. A good minute later, play is stopped by a serious injury which takes several minutes to sort out. Play is to resume with a penalty to red and, as the teams line up, I instruct white skipper to call his player on - only to discover that his coach has already sent him onto the FOP!

I give player and skipper a right rollicking stating that he is very lucky not to be given a RC.

In the second instance, red prop went off with dead leg, reducing scrums to seven and his team to thirteen players. Some ten minutes later with only a couple of minutes left on the clock, red attempted to form a scrum with a number eight. When I informed them no number eights were allowed, they informed me that their prop was back on the field!

Another rollicking and threat of a red card.

In the bar afterwards, both coaches stated that bringing players back onto the FOP without informing the referee was standing practice at this level! First for me and they seemed to think that a RC in either of these instances was over the top.

Organisers were disinterested on the basis that there was such a huge differential in the scores - home team won by forty-six points.

NM

 

[Waspsfan]

Why did you want to let him back on at a penalty?

 

[Jacko]

Why did you want to let him back on at a penalty?

Why would he not??

 

[Pinky]

Had two very similiar instances in a recent colts' match. Home team, white, winning convincingly against red, who had only fourteen players.

White six is yellow carded. With one minute left on his clock, as is my custom, I inform his skipper that his time is almost up. A good minute later, play is stopped by a serious injury which takes several minutes to sort out. Play is to resume with a penalty to red and, as the teams line up, I instruct white skipper to call his player on - only to discover that his coach has already sent him onto the FOP!

I give player and skipper a right rollicking stating that he is very lucky not to be given a RC.

In the second instance, red prop went off with dead leg, reducing scrums to seven and his team to thirteen players. Some ten minutes later with only a couple of minutes left on the clock, red attempted to form a scrum with a number eight. When I informed them no number eights were allowed, they informed me that their prop was back on the field!

Another rollicking and threat of a red card.

In the bar afterwards, both coaches stated that bringing players back onto the FOP without informing the referee was standing practice at this level! First for me and they seemed to think that a RC in either of these instances was over the top.

Organisers were disinterested on the basis that there was such a huge differential in the scores - home team won by forty-six points.

NM

NM, I wondered if U brought a bit of this on yourself? W player, U had said time nearly up. W may have assumed that was permission to come back on when just over a minute later there was aaa break in play. I also think a red card sanction is a bit steep. 3.11 b has no sanction for coming on without permission. 3.11 c says PK where this is done to gain an advantage. So for me, never one to threaten RC.

 

[Waspsfan]

Why would he not??

3.11 (b) “A player who leaves a match because of injury or any other reason must not rejoin the match until the referee permits the player to return. The referee must not let a player rejoin a match until the ball is dead.”

5.7 (e) "The ball becomes dead when the referee would have awarded a scrum, lineout, an option to the on infringing team, drop out or after a conversion or successful penalty kick at goal"

The ball is not dead at a penalty. So at a penalty I would not allow a yellow carded player to return.

 

[Na Madrai]

3.11 (b) “A player who leaves a match because of injury or any other reason must not rejoin the match until the referee permits the player to return. The referee must not let a player rejoin a match until the ball is dead.”

5.7 (e) "The ball becomes dead when the referee would have awarded a scrum, lineout, an option to the on infringing team, drop out or after a conversion or successful penalty kick at goal"

The ball is not dead at a penalty. So at a penalty I would not allow a yellow carded player to return.


Never actually realised this before - still learning at my tender years!

Normally, I would not delay a penalty to permit a player to return but as the penalty was delayed whilst an injured player received treatment, my intention was to allow the player back on. However, the skipper conveying to him that a minute is left is to give the player time to prepare for his return - not permission for a third party to take control of the time.

In this instance, the player returned without permission, his team now had too many players on the park and I am fairly sure that the laws state that the extra player must be removed from the pitch, hence a card, and as he had already received a YC in this match ....

NM

 

[FlipFlop]

for all those who think the ball is not dead at a PK. I would generally agree, if it were not for the IRB disagreeing:

[LAWS]Clarification 2 2007


Ruling in Law by the Designated Members of the Rugby Committee
Ruling2-2007
UnionIRFU
Law Reference3
Date12 March 2007
Request
1. A penalty kick is awarded to White team. Before the kick is taken, can White team make a substitution? (If so, we assume that the substitute can take the penalty kick.)


2. A penalty kick is awarded to White team. Before the kick is taken can a previously sin-binned White player return; given that the 10 minutes have fully elapsed? (If so, we assume that the returning player may take the penalty kick.)
Ruling in Law by the Designated Members of the Rugby Committee
A substitution can only be made when the ball is dead. A referee must not let a player rejoin the match until the ball is dead. The ball is dead when the ball is out of play. This happens when the ball has gone outside the playing area and remained there, or when the referee has blown the whistle to indicate a stoppage in play, or when a conversion kick has been taken.


In both cases outlined above, the ball is dead, and therefore the answer to each question is in the affirmative.
[/LAWS]

 

[crossref]

The thing here is that wherever there is the possibility of a quick tap we have a zombie ball. The ball that is neither alive nor dead.

It's clearly not properly live as the whistle has gone and the offending team can't play it, but neither is it completely dead as the non-offending team can restart the game with no notice.

So when you give a PK to white
- if the quick tap is on, then you do not stop play to allow a sub/retunring YC by blue.
- but per the IRB white can delay their own kick to bring on a sub (in which case I would let blue also bring on their sub/YC player)
- I would say that if the quick tap is not on (white are kicking for goal, you have time-off to admonish a player or issue a card) then the ball is really dead and both sides can therefore bring on sub/YC

 

[OB..]

[LAWS]Definitions
Dead: [FONT=fs_blakeregular]The ball is out of play. This happens when the ball has gone outside the playing area and remained there, or when the referee has blown the whistle to indicate a stoppage in play, or when a conversion kick has been taken.[/FONT][/LAWS]
Law 5.7 (e) is dealing specifically with the expiration of time. A penalty does not cause a match to end after time has expired, so is dealt with separately.

We have often referred to the status of the ball at a penalty or after going into touch as a zombie-ball because it can be brought back into play without any action by the referee.

The opposition cannot hold up a penalty in order to bring back a player, but the non-offending team can.

 

[SimonSmith]

The opposition cannot hold up a penalty in order to bring back a player, but the non-offending team can.

Which is what happens in my matches usually.

 

[crossref]

3.11 (b) “A player who leaves a match because of injury or any other reason must not rejoin the match until the referee permits the player to return. The referee must not let a player rejoin a match until the ball is dead.”

5.7 (e) "The ball becomes dead when the referee would have awarded a scrum, lineout, an option to the on infringing team, drop out or after a conversion or successful penalty kick at goal"

The ball is not dead at a penalty. So at a penalty I would not allow a yellow carded player to return.


Never actually realised this before - still learning at my tender years!

Normally, I would not delay a penalty to permit a player to return but as the penalty was delayed whilst an injured player received treatment, my intention was to allow the player back on. However, the skipper conveying to him that a minute is left is to give the player time to prepare for his return - not permission for a third party to take control of the time.

In this instance, the player returned without permission, his team now had too many players on the park and I am fairly sure that the laws state that the extra player must be removed from the pitch, hence a card, and as he had already received a YC in this match ....

NM

if you have blown time off to treat an injured player then the ball is certainly dead, and it's an ideal time to make subs / for YC to returrn etc.

 

[Blackberry]

Going back to the extra player stopping a try, perhaps some refs might claim that he was not yet a player (he had not been given permission) so he could be treated the same as a spectator encroaching, where I believe we are given scope to decide what would have happened next without his interference, and go with that. However, even if that is how the spectator / encroachment outcome is determined, it would be putting a problem onto the ref's back as he would have to sell that decision. Perhaps best to let the score stand for now but inform the organising body.