Fdk, deliberate pass into an opponent (?)

[didds]

sometime towards the end of SA v Fr QF4, SA - just about 76:04 or thereabouts - are deep in Frances half. A ruck forms, SA ball. A French player 9blue 4) is offside following a previous tackle and sensibly stays behind the ruck, crouching, to minimise any possible interference and PK until after FdK has passed the ball away.

FgK does indeed pass the ball away, straight into the semi prone French player and appeals for a (presumably PK).. Whilst we cannot know for sure obviously it looks like a deliberate act ie passing into the player.

The ref awards a scrummage TO France for a subsequent accidental offside from the ricochets off other SA players subsequently.
I had a sneaking vague recollection that deliberately throwing the ball into an opponent was a PK against the thrower?

The other variable in this was that Pollard (I think - Green 12) was back in a pocket for a DG and it could be that the FdK pass to 12 WAS the plan... and blue 4 was in fact just in the way, genuinely . In which case why wouldnt blue 4 have been offisde,as he possibly DID influence the pass enough etc ?
Ive only got this still which isnt great - best seen on a video at 76:04 game time if you have access to one (UK=ITVX=https://www.itv.com/watch/rugby-world-cup/2a4138)

 

[crossref]

I thought it should have been a PK to SA as he was offside , and in the way

A lot of people don't like the offside player being "pointed out" to the ref.

 

[didds]

again I cant really see that iy shouldnt have been a PK to SA as pollard was in the pocket for a DG and that -does seem to be where FdK was passing. Perhaps the ref thought it hit rge green player on the foloor (surely not?!).

the whole episode is somewhat confusing

 

[belladonna]

On the Irish TV feed the commentators were clear it would have been a very different trajectory to get the ball to Pollard. Dick move by FdK to try and milk the PK

 

[smeagol]

On the Irish TV feed the commentators were clear it would have been a very different trajectory to get the ball to Pollard. Dick move by FdK to try and milk the PK

This scenario came up in my society at grassroots level, and the consensus after the fact was to PK the defender - this wouldn't happen if the defender adhered to what is required by law, which is to fully retreat.

 

[didds]

well i have some sympathy for blue 4.

legitimate tackle, ended on the wrong side. stayed low and clearly trying to keep out of the way. "retreating" to his own wide would have left in a channel left opr right while he went there. Players cant just disappear - they have to be somewhere and here was a case of him being where he was initially legitimately.

That saId that cant absolve defneders entirely but Im not really usre what he was supposed to do.
As for whether the trajectory faf gave the ball would have reached pollard I dunno.

OIts all a bit of a conundrym as the ref seems to have completely ignored it he CANNOT have missed it surely?)

 

[didds]

Put another way maybe... if blue 4 instead of stayiong low to try and keep out of the way, he had just ran blindly back to an onside position and the ball had been passed sideways to a runner left or right, and then hit him, you'd be happy with that ? As he was making every effort to get back and wasnt just a alzy runner?

 

[ianh5979]

When I watched the game you could hear the ref clearly say to SA scrum half don't try to milk a penalty, and the player in position to take a drop kick was in a totally different passing lane

 

[chbg]

FdF appeared to deliberately 'pass' the ball at the prone French player, who was otherwise not interfering with, or trying to take part in, play. Great refereeing. See Law 10.1.

 

[crossref]

FdF appeared to deliberately 'pass' the ball at the prone French player, who was otherwise not interfering with, or trying to take part in, play. Great refereeing. See Law 10.1.

This situation is 15.4 though

 

[Volun-selected]

I’d give the scrum half some pretty broad latitude but if I think it’s a deliberate throw into a player who is keeping out the way, I’m gonna ping the SH. Defender ambling back, or sitting a little high, or even just a crappy pass - SH is getting benefit of doubt and a scrum awarded to them for accidental offside.

If obviously deliberate in my opinion (and as I’ve reminded players several times, that’s the only one that matters) then it’s a PK - simulation, spirit of the game, dick move or - worst of all to the laws of rugby - stopping the flow of the game, whatever, I’m going to PK and have a word. I will shut that down fast.

(I’ve seen this - SH threw a ball that was never going to reach their own player but paused to target an oppo trying to crawl back - nope, not having that. Same as piling in to trap a player on the ground and then pretending you can’t get the ball out. Yeah, seen that too.)

 

[SimonSmith]

FdF appeared to deliberately 'pass' the ball at the prone French player, who was otherwise not interfering with, or trying to take part in, play. Great refereeing. See Law 10.1.

No-one could process it accurately, because of the shock of seeing FDK actually passing instead of box kciking.

 

[crossref]

If obviously deliberate in my opinion (and as I’ve reminded players several times, that’s the only one that matters) then it’s a PK - simulation, spirit of the game, dick move or - worst of all to the laws of rugby - stopping the flow of the game, whatever, I’m going to PK and have a word. I will shut that down fast.

So you would have PK'd Faf de Klerk ?
I think that would be harsh, and not supported in Law

You are putting a burden on the SH to work around the offside player, under risk of a PK

 

[didds]

When I watched the game you could hear the ref clearly say to SA scrum half don't try to milk a penalty, and the player in position to take a drop kick was in a totally different passing lane

i hadnt heard the ref so thanks for that. And the small snippet I looked at didnt make the relative positions of pass and green 12 clear - again thanks.

So what other vreason doid FdK have to pass into blue 4 - if not to milk a penalty?

 

[didds]

So you would have PK'd Faf de Klerk ?
I think that would be harsh, and not supported in Law

You are putting a burden on the SH to work around the offside player, under risk of a PK

There is however surely a distinction between the offside player being in the way, and just passing into them with no receiver available on that passing line? (see posts above)

 

[crossref]

There is however surely a distinction between the o/side player being in the way, and just passing into them with no receiver avaiolable on that passing line? (see posts above)

if the offside player is limiting the options available, then he is interfering with play so liable to sanction. In that case I don't really have a problem with the SH pointing this out by throwing ball into him.

If the offside player is flat on the ground, say, then he's not normally imiting the SH's options... so SH get on with it...

In this particualr incidient, in real time I thought the French player was not flat on the ground, and was in the way, and I would have given a PK to SA (hopefully playing adv before Faf thrw the ball) I haven't rewatched it, though, but that was my impression at the time - SA should have had a PK.

 

[didds]

if the offside player is limiting the options available, then he is interfering with play so liable to sanction. In that case I don't really have a problem with the SH pointing this out by throwing ball into him.

and what if the passing line ihas no options on the end of it? ie the ball is just passed into the opffside player - it s not a genione pass? Which given the extra info I was provided with above appears to the case.

 

[Jz558]

Passing the ball to hit offside players and adjusting your run to collide with retreating players following a quick penalty. All part of an experienced scrum half's armoury.

 

[didds]

Passing the ball to hit offside players and adjusting your run to collide with retreating players following a quick penalty. All part of an experienced scrum half's armoury.

and if the p-ass couldnt have actually gone to a team mate ?

 

[Jz558]

a) Genuine pass to teammate (in the opinion of the ref) - offside
b) Attempt to buy a penalty (as the ref decided in the OP) - play on and have the "dont milk it" conversation at the earliest opportunity. If the scrum half throws the ball away in a gamble that you'll buy in then thats their call.

The other half way house scenarion is an offside player genuinely trying to get back onside but is actually in the way and the scrum half speeds up the rate at which they retrieve the ball from the breakdwon to ensure they hit the retreating player. Deliberate act however the opposition were still offside so penalty.