[Law] Folau’s online comments have taken a turn for the worse.

[Dickie E]

Excessive swearing or threats/barbs that include issues that the player has no control over (gender, sexuality, race) will usually elicit a word to the captain to settle it down followed by other sanctions.

might be worth checking with your overlords on this. I understand the ARU expects this stuff to elicit an automatic RC.

 

[Jarrod Burton]

might be worth checking with your overlords on this. I understand the ARU expects this stuff to elicit an automatic RC.

I'll ask - given that our "Judiciary" appear to be much more interested in being heavy handed in punishing this sort of stuff than dangerous actions (ie a white player called the guy who had just dumped him on his head a "stupid f**king coconut" was up for 13 weeks while the tackler got the 1 week mandatory after a RC for a deliberate lift and slam) I wouldn't be surprised.

A genuine threat would get a RC, while an inappropriate barb would get a chat - I should have been more accurate.

 

[Rich_NL]

I've been advised that direct abuse on the grounds of race/sexuality is a straight red. Jokey chat among teammates ("ah, stop whinging, you homo") I'd probably give a very firm warning and card at the second.

 

[crossref]

A quick word may be a risky strategy.
If someone present subsequently makes a report of this sort of behaviour happening (which is entirely possible), then how you dealt with it will come under a lot of scrutiny

 

[Ian_Cook]

A lot of this discussion is far from rugby related

Some good rugby questions might be
.. if you realised that a member of your grass roots rugby club is on YouTube delivering that sermon .. what would you do ? If anything

If someone on a rugby field said to the other team something like, no wonder your clubhouse got struck by lightning , it was God .. because of ... reasons

As a ref what would you do. If anything

A while back, one rugby player called another rugby player "gypsy boy". IIRC, it didn't end particularly well for the name caller.

(At the time, I didn't see what all the fuss was about, as "gypsy" simply does not have the negative connotations here that it does in England)


As for Folau, well, he's as dumb as a bag of hammers (or as my dear departed da would have said - "as dim as a Toc H lamp").

 

[Jarrod Burton]

I've been advised that direct abuse on the grounds of race/sexuality is a straight red. Jokey chat among teammates ("ah, stop whinging, you homo") I'd probably give a very firm warning and card at the second.

Incident 1) Red player to a Red player "**** off Homo"
Incident 2) Blue player to Red player "**** off Homo"

Do you Red Card both? If not, why not? Both are abuse and I've seen plenty of hostilities within teams/clubs that go back a long time including a fight in a clubhouse after a match.

 

[L'irlandais]

A while back, one rugby player called another rugby player "gypsy boy". IIRC, it didn't end particularly well for the name caller.

(At the time, I didn't see what all the fuss was about, as "gypsy" simply does not have the negative connotations here that it does in England)


As for Folau, well, he's as dumb as a bag of hammers (or as my dear departed da would have said - "as dim as a Toc H lamp").

Joe Marler is an oft misunderstood player. Quite what he’s trying to get across in this prematch interview I don’t know. “Taking the horse to the water, and asking it to drink or swim.” is a mixed metaphor if ever I heard one.

Come back Eric Cantona all is forgiven, we have forgotten about the seagulls remark, honest.

It appears the Welsh prop called him a ”posh English c?nt !”. Some would consider that mitigating circumstances. While I could well imagine Joe Marler coming out with some racist Irish comment in my presence. Not convinced I’d voice my objections too loudly at the bar in the Stoop. Now if he made the same comment at a bar in Limerick of a Friday night, I might well pull him up over if. The odds would be less in his favour. Although to be fair, the bouncers would probaly step in to save me, and kick me out, and apologize to Mr Marler for my drunkenness.

I had heard the Talbot House story before, but your post made me google it once more.
(To figure out what “Dim as a Toc aiche lamp” meant.)

 

[Rich_NL]

Incident 1) Red player to a Red player "**** off Homo"
Incident 2) Blue player to Red player "**** off Homo"

Do you Red Card both? If not, why not? Both are abuse and I've seen plenty of hostilities within teams/clubs that go back a long time including a fight in a clubhouse after a match.

Both, it's a hostile context. What I wouldn't necessarily card first time is "friendly fire" (although if I learn that's expected here I'd happily change my position). It's about context, not the noise of the word being uttered.

 

[Dickie E]

I would have some trouble with the word 'gay', particularly amongst younger players. 'Gay' has evolved from having a homosexual connotation to be a general derogatory comment.

So, "get up, ya soft gay so&so" no longer is a homophobic slur. Or is it?

 

[SimonSmith]

Well, it's not being used as a compliment, is it? It's being used that way precisely because of the connotations. No better than "homo" or "fag".

No tolerance. Offski.

 

[Dickie E]

It's being used that way precisely because of the connotations. No better than "homo" or "fag".

that's my point - to many younger folk it has no homophobic connotation. What would you do if someone called an opponent a "friend of Dorothy"?

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

Well, it's not being used as a compliment, is it? It's being used that way precisely because of the connotations. No better than "homo" or "fag".

No tolerance. Offski.

Sorry Simon, that is sticks and stones. If a player really has a problem with such language, that is why his 11 teammates. I say eleven because we can't really include 9, 11,14 for help.

A RC by a referee for language, aside from a threat of harm, is acting as thought police. No matter how you are personally offended.

And if in fact the offended player is gay, it isn't even slander. Worse yet, if the RC'd player who used "gay" is in fact gay. Now what do you do?

Refs are not in charge of language or thought.

that's my point - to many younger folk it has no homophobic connotation. What would you do if someone called an opponent a "friend of Dorothy"?

What about "friend of bill"?

 

[Dickie E]

A RC by a referee for language, aside from a threat of harm, is acting as thought police.

I think there are some words, that if used, are clearly RC-worthy.

But there's also a whole set that are in the grey area. As Ian suggests, if a player called another a "gypsy" I'd be nonplussed - probably think he's a Fleetwood Mac fan

 

[Rich_NL]

A RC by a referee for language, aside from a threat of harm, is acting as thought police. No matter how you are personally offended.

What nonsense! They can think what they like. It's acting as behaviour police, which is absolutely a role of the referee. If I carded everyone who had a disrespectful thought about a match official I'd be lucky to reach half time, but if they display that on the pitch then I act to show that it has no place in the game.

And if in fact the offended player is gay, it isn't even slander. Worse yet, if the RC'd player who used "gay" is in fact gay. Now what do you do?

RC him/her. Because it's about behaving respectfully, not legal consequences. Whether or not certain actions are illegal in certain jurisdictions, rugby is a game of standards as well as laws.

Refs are not in charge of language or thought.

So you wouldn't card the 9 who disagrees with your call with a full-throated "f*** you, you cheating c***"? It's freedom of expression after all.

Or does your spirit only extend to protecting the players' rights to insult others on the basis of their race and sexuality?

 

[Toby Warren]

Joe Marler is an oft misunderstood player. Quite what he’s trying to get across in this prematch interview I don’t know. “Taking the horse to the water, and asking it to drink or swim.” is a mixed metaphor if ever I heard one.

Come back Eric Cantona all is forgiven, we have forgotten about the seagulls remark, honest.

It appears the Welsh prop called him a ”posh English c?nt !”. Some would consider that mitigating circumstances. While I could well imagine Joe Marler coming out with some racist Irish comment in my presence. Not convinced I’d voice my objections too loudly at the bar in the Stoop. Now if he made the same comment at a bar in Limerick of a Friday night, I might well pull him up over if. The odds would be less in his favour. Although to be fair, the bouncers would probaly step in to save me, and kick me out, and apologize to Mr Marler for my drunkenness.

I had heard the Talbot House story before, but your post made me google it once more.
(To figure out what “Dim as a Toc aiche lamp” meant.)

In the linked interview he’s taking the P.....

 

[SimonSmith]

Sorry Simon, that is sticks and stones. If a player really has a problem with such language, that is why his 11 teammates. I say eleven because we can't really include 9, 11,14 for help.

A RC by a referee for language, aside from a threat of harm, is acting as thought police. No matter how you are personally offended.

And if in fact the offended player is gay, it isn't even slander. Worse yet, if the RC'd player who used "gay" is in fact gay. Now what do you do?

Refs are not in charge of language or thought.



What about "friend of bill"?

World Rugby disagree with you, as the sanction table I laid out upthread shows.

Are we really taking this to the point where we're trying to decide what kind of homophobic abuse is acceptable? What next, 'racial terms that aren't actually racist because I didn't mean it that way'?

 

[Dickie E]

Are we really taking this to the point where we're trying to decide what kind of homophobic abuse is acceptable? What next, 'racial terms that aren't actually racist because I didn't mean it that way'?

NKW is too black and you are too white (or vice versa ).

There are shades of grey that we need to acknowledge and be cognisant of. Not just in this matter but in all facets of life.

 

[Jarrod Burton]

NKW is too black and you are too white (or vice versa ).

There are shades of grey that we need to acknowledge and be cognisant of. Not just in this matter but in all facets of life.

Dickie! Don't you realise that you are in an internet forum?!? There are only two views - Mine and Wrong.

 

[SimonSmith]

NKW is too black and you are too white (or vice versa ).

There are shades of grey that we need to acknowledge and be cognisant of. Not just in this matter but in all facets of life.

Go on. What is the grey area on slurs? I'm interested. This sounds like old white men trying to find excuses to call people whatever the hell they like.

 

[Dickie E]

Go on. What is the grey area on slurs? I'm interested. This sounds like old white men trying to find excuses to call people whatever the hell they like.

Well, you can't be too interested or you would have read posts # 29 & 33