[TRC] Folau knock on 4 vs 1 overlap, no card or PT

[JohnP]

Only link I have to this form Saturday
https://twitter.com/paulturnerrugby/status/909867921400385536

Thoughts? it was not slapped down but one hand and failed to catch it so foiling a certain try, crucial to game at that point.

 

[didds]

I can see "why" it wasn't the normal "slap down". But in that position and 4 v 1...

didds

 

[Nigib]

PT & YC all day for me

 

[damo]

Yikes. Yes that's a pretty clear PT for me. No chance he is trying to catch the ball.

From the Twitter comments it seems like the ref just awarded a scrum. :holysheep:

 

[Dickie E]

I can see "why" it wasn't the normal "slap down". But in that position and 4 v 1...

didds

question 1 is : was it (a) a deliberate or (b) an accidental knock on?

Only if the answer is (a) does the referee then consider position, 4 v 1, etc

 

[Rich_NL]

I'd judge that as deliberate, PT/YC if I saw it in a match of mine; there's no realistic chance of catching a ball that high cross flight with one hand. At least, not at the level I ref.

 

[winchesterref]

For me, PT & YC

 

[crossref]

I think it was pretty cynical - knowing that a slap-down is pretty much an automatic YC, he seized the opportunity to slap-up, and then made the most of the slim chance of regathering, hoping to persuade the referee it was just a knock on...

 

[didds]

I'd judge that as deliberate, PT/YC if I saw it in a match of mine; there's no realistic chance of catching a ball that high cross flight with one hand. At least, not at the level I ref.

but if he catches it before it hits the ground - it may be a 75m run-in... you ain't ever going to catch a slap DOWN...

A PT fair enough. Dunno about a card though. Though there is also the "accidents rarely happen" argument here...

didds

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

I thought by slapping it up there was a very good chance of re-gathering (after all he seems quite good at catching ) the deflection. In this instance had he not lost sight of the ball (as it appeared) he may well have been able to re-gather and be off downfield.

That said I'm not sure if by rolling the dice as he does he absolves himself from the PT and YC.

 

[Ian_Cook]

We have been discussing a different intentional knock-forward incident on another forum... this one did result in a YC and PT

https://youtu.be/KEFLl6wVz4M?t=105

Here is my take on that one, which could equally apply to this, and another one I saw in the Sarries v Falcons match from the weekend just gone.

There needs to be some consistency here. I would like to see players encouraged to make sure that if they intend to go for an intercept, they MUST try to catch the ball - like Nehe Milner-Skudder on Saturday -

https://youtu.be/_Jk0jf2ni2M?t=49

- he got a hand on the ball and never lost contact with it. Soft hands is the key to dong this successfully.

For mine, if the player just sticks his arm out and knocks the ball forwards (hard hands) with an intention to regather, whether he knocks it up or down, then he is taking a risk. If he fails to regather the ball he's getting pinged for a deliberate knock forward, and depending on where and when it happens, that could also mean a YC and/or PT. The only exception I would make is where a player does this and is then tackled before he can regather.

 

[OB..]

I'd judge that as deliberate, PT/YC if I saw it in a match of mine; there's no realistic chance of catching a ball that high cross flight with one hand. At least, not at the level I ref.

No you won't catch it one-handed - but you might bring it down so you can catch it properly. I presume the referee saw it as trying to do that and therefore deemed it accidental.

It would be interesting to know the Match Observer's view!

(Remember Tim Stimpson trying to regain the ball against South Africa? He managed to knock the ball forward twice when it was up in the air, but only a scrum was awarded.)

 

[beckett50]

There is not even an attempt to gain possession of the ball by Folau. Should have been a PT & YC in the same way that the Falcons player was penalised last Saturday in their match against Saracens.

But for the action of foul play would the try have been scored? There was a clear 4 on 1 overlap, so quite clearly the answer to that question is "Yes".

 

[ChrisR]

Pretty clear to me that this was an attempt to intercept the pass. I don't see that as cynical negative play. Scrum was the right call.

 

[Wedgie]

To me it looked an instinctive, immediate attempt to catch the ball (however futile that we might see with hindsight, and slo-mo replay). In the weeds, I would call the scrum. At professional level, several folks think nothing happens by accident, so I leave it to pro refs to sort that out.

 

[VM75]

Folau gambled,

If he catches the 'knock up' he a] saves a try & b] probably scores
If he doesn't try to hit the ball his team almost certainly concede a try.
If he does hit the ball forward then he can still hope that the referee makes a poor decision, the % likelihood of this is his personal judgement of the whistler in charge.

On balance, it seemed well worth the reward v the risk !

 

[Ian_Cook]

If a player deliberately knocks the ball forwards with the intent of catching the ball, and then he fails to catch the ball, there is no escaping from the fact that he deliberately knocked the ball forwards in the first place. Its that simple.

 

[OB..]

If a player deliberately knocks the ball forwards with the intent of catching the ball, and then he fails to catch the ball, there is no escaping from the fact that he deliberately knocked the ball forwards in the first place. Its that simple.

Key word in red. I suspect his main aim was to prevent the pass getting to the wide players and that he may well have hoped just to bring it down. I am not convinced that he deliberately knocked it forward, but he certainly took that risk.

 

[beckett50]

Key word in red. I suspect his main aim was to prevent the pass getting to the wide players and that he may well have hoped just to bring it down. I am not convinced that he deliberately knocked it forward, but he certainly took that risk.

Even with the new definition of "Possession" he wasn't and never would have been, so even more evidence for the PT & YC.

As you say, oh to be a fly on the wall of the Match Observer debrief.

 

[galumay]

I thought a scrum was the right call. I didnt see it as a deliberate knock down at all. In saying that it was one of those that could have gone either way, there is always a level of interpretation of intent that makes it a grey area.