FR Logic Tree
- Thread starter The Fat
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I think the 14/15 version is the latest out there.
Its the one that has two versions.
Level 5 and below version
Above level 5 version
Are they readily available on the RFU website or is it secret men's business?
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Cheers
Nb this login tree is flawed as the references to 14 assume that the team is starting with 15 players.
If a team actually have 14 already (eg a there has been a prior unrelated YC or RC . ) then a subsequent front row injury with no replacement would reduce them to 13...
(cue howls of outrage)
If a team actually have 14 already (eg a there has been a prior unrelated YC or RC . ) then a subsequent front row injury with no replacement would reduce them to 13...
(cue howls of outrage)
That would be assuming that the team was already down to 14 players because a player other than a FR player had been carded and prior to the FR injury, there were still contested scrums and there were no more FR players available to replace the injured FR player.
The reason for my original post was to confirm what happens when a team, that nominated 23 players and therefore had 2 players for each FR position, loses say both TH props (let's say through injury). Even though the team fully complied with the laws at the start of the game, once the two injuries caused the game to go with uncontested scrums, that team would not be able to replace the second injured TH and would have to then play with 14 players.
This is confirmed by Law Clarification 5 - 2015.
Replacement. A player who replaces an injured team-mate.
Substitute. A player who replaces a team-mate for tactical reasons.
Example 1: 3 is injured and replaced (note definition above) by 18 (the declared TH cover). If 18 gets then gets injured the team goes to 14 players and uncontested scrums. (Law 3.5 h, m and t )
Example 2: 3 is substituted (note definition above) by 18 (the declared TH cover). If 18 gets then gets injured then 3 can return and the game continues with contested scrums (Law 3.5 r and s and 3.13)
Example 3: 3 is injured and replaced by 18 (the declared TH cover). If 18 gets then gets temporarily replaced for Blood (Law 3.10) or HIA (Law 3.11) the team can continue with 15 players but scrums become uncontested until 18 returns. If 18 does not return then the team goes to 14 players and uncontested scrums. (Law 3.5 h, m and t)
Example 4: 3 is substituted by 18 (the declared TH cover). If 18 gets then gets temporarily replaced for (Law 3.10) or HIA (Law 3.11) then 3 can return and the game continues with contested scrums. (Law 3.13)
In order to facilitate this process and apply Law 3.5(g) then teams should declare prior to the match (on the competition team sheet) exactly which front row positions that players are suitably trained and experienced to play in. These players can be nominated to play in more than one front row position.
However, (stupid question time again), if a team has been subject to the man off rule and they are playing with 14 players and uncontested scrums, if a LH prop gets replaced and then his replacement LH also gets injured (this team is having a really bad day), because the game has already gone to uncontested scrums, that second LH prop would be able to be replaced by any bench player and they continue with 14 players. Is this correct?
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Just FYI This FR Logic Tree was created by the Midlands Group Comps Secretary some seasons ago,and just adopted by the Societies.
I have never heard of it bring formally adopted or published by RFU centrally - Phil E / Murph you ever heard anything ?
I have never heard of it bring formally adopted or published by RFU centrally - Phil E / Murph you ever heard anything ?
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Simon
If you follow the second link I posted for fat it leads to the RFU (England Rugby) website.
Ciaran Trainor
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Got asked this question.
Red go down to 14 due to a sin bin for prop, and then went to uncontested scrums.
If they haven't made a FR replacement I guess they should bring him on and stay contested.
If they have made a change and claim the FR is now injured I believe they stay at 14 for the duration of the Sin bin.
I got asked but Red have caused the uncontested scrum and should lose another man?
I think it isn't clear even when you read the logic tree as if there is and injury say to shoulder of FR but technically could continue to play he has to go off for causing uncontested scrums.
I think I am correct in my judgement.
Do you all agree.
Level 7 3 subs 1 FR
Red go down to 14 due to a sin bin for prop, and then went to uncontested scrums.
If they haven't made a FR replacement I guess they should bring him on and stay contested.
If they have made a change and claim the FR is now injured I believe they stay at 14 for the duration of the Sin bin.
I got asked but Red have caused the uncontested scrum and should lose another man?
I think it isn't clear even when you read the logic tree as if there is and injury say to shoulder of FR but technically could continue to play he has to go off for causing uncontested scrums.
I think I am correct in my judgement.
Do you all agree.
Level 7 3 subs 1 FR
If a FR player has picked up an injury that prevents him continuing to play in the FR with contested scrums, he is also unfit to continue to play anywhere on the field. He is finished for the day.
I don't understand your scenario, it isn't clear to me..
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14 men and uncontested.
Next scrum if they have a FR bring him on and take someone off. Still 14 but contested. At end of YC back to 15 and contested.
Next scrum if they don't have a FR its 14 and uncontested. At end of YC back to 15 and contested.
The man off scenario, taking another man off and down to 13 was originally mentioned by RFU but quickly reversed on advice from IRB.
Next scrum if they have a FR bring him on and take someone off. Still 14 but contested. At end of YC back to 15 and contested.
Next scrum if they don't have a FR its 14 and uncontested. At end of YC back to 15 and contested.
The man off scenario, taking another man off and down to 13 was originally mentioned by RFU but quickly reversed on advice from IRB.
Ciaran Trainor
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Thanks Phil E confirmed my understanding
The general rule is: If someone leaving the field (for what ever reason) causes uncontested scrums they cannot replace that player unless it results in contested scrums.
So in the scenario given (unless mistaken in understating of scenario) - prop off causes uncontested. They cannot replace to allow contested (which they have to do if possible), so remain at 14 and uncontested.
Yes it isn't always fair, but that's life
So in the scenario given (unless mistaken in understating of scenario) - prop off causes uncontested. They cannot replace to allow contested (which they have to do if possible), so remain at 14 and uncontested.
Yes it isn't always fair, but that's life
well, if he goes off because of a RC or YC, he cannot be replaced at all --- and if they now need to bring on sub to contest the scrums then someone else is going to have to be replaced...
In which case you can only do so if it results in contested scrums. My point was that if you can't end up at contested scrums, the person that went off is not replaced. Not a player needs to go off. So Red card, no ability to remain contested scrums, to play 14. Not 13. (assuming 15 to start). The point being that the FR is not replaced to enable contested scrums, so the FR going off (for any reason) results in either contested scrum (either via sub or temp sub for cards) or uncontested scrums (no replacement of FR who went off).
It is not a rule that says - uncontested so take off a player. It is a rule that says - FR goes off, either sub (including YC/blood sub etc) to enable contested, or no sub at all. Not an extra player leaving.
Sorry to come back to this.
There is a question on Rolling maul.
So green run out of props so need to go uncontested so drop to 14 men.
Then there is a separate yellow card.
Do they play with 13 for the duration of the card?
There is a question on Rolling maul.
So green run out of props so need to go uncontested so drop to 14 men.
Then there is a separate yellow card.
Do they play with 13 for the duration of the card?