FR Logic Tree

[Thunderhorse1986]

How many players need to be in an uncontested scrum?

Red have 16 players (1 sub, a back) but no FR replacement. Their LHP gets injured, has to go off. They bring on their replacement (the back). That is fine. Then there is a scrum. Must be uncontested as Red have no FR to scrummage. They have to go to 14 men.

Can they scrummage with 7 in the uncontested scrum? And if so, can Blue also drop to 7?

If Red then lose their THP, they go to 13 players, again, can they scrummage with 6?

Or are Red forced to have 8 in the uncontested scrum and therefore have a reduced back line?

 

[didds]

seniors or age groups (which?) , and which country?

didds

 

[crossref]

How many players need to be in an uncontested scrum?

Red have 16 players (1 sub, a back) but no FR replacement. Their LHP gets injured, has to go off. They bring on their replacement (the back). That is fine. Then there is a scrum. Must be uncontested as Red have no FR to scrummage. They have to go to 14 men.

Can they scrummage with 7 in the uncontested scrum? And if so, can Blue also drop to 7?

If Red then lose their THP, they go to 13 players, again, can they scrummage with 6?

Or are Red forced to have 8 in the uncontested scrum and therefore have a reduced back line?

- with 14 players red can choose either 8 or 7
- with 13 players red can choose either 8 or 7 or 6

blue
- at adult levels blue have 15 players so they have to have 8 in scrum
- at u19 and below blue have to match red

 

[Thunderhorse1986]

- with 14 players red can choose either 8 or 7
- with 13 players red can choose either 8 or 7 or 6

blue
- at adult levels blue have 15 players so they have to have 8 in scrum
- at u19 and below blue have to match red

Thanks - this was as I had expected (juniors must match, nothing to say seniors must). However it possibly goes against the spirit of the law? The team which hasn't offended, and has a full FR complement has to tie up 8 players in the scrum, while the opposition can have fewer and therefore keep their fill of players in the back line. That is why I asked the question as while I believed that was the right answer, it didn't necessarily feel right.

Furthermore, in one competition I referee (ZOO league), it is stated in the regulations that if a team "goes to uncontested scrums during a match they wiill need to remove an outfield player for the durartion of uncontested scrums". This was confirmed by a competition organiser to mean someone not in the scrum and that the intention is that the scrum will stay the same number and a player will be taken from the backs.

 

[crossref]

the team that hasn't offended has a full complement in the backs as well as in the pack!

I ref in the ZOO league as well - the rules there are not well written..
this is what it says..

10. The normal league regulations applying to the constitution of the Front Row WILL NOT APPLY, Where one side is unable to field a qualified front row the match will be played with uncontested scrums. This is an attempt to get a game played wherever possible for the benefit of all players concerned. However it is expected that clubs will approach this rule in the spirit that it is written and meant !! Teams expecting to be uncontested must also give prior notice to the opposition well in advance. In line with RFU policy a team who starts, or who goes to uncontested scrums during a match, will need to remove an outfield player for the duration of uncontested scrums.

when you go uncontested during the game, the person who has been 'removed' is the FR player who just went off, and who isn't replaced, so that phrase about removing an outfield player makes no sense.

When a team starts with uncontested scrums there is an implication that the organisers want there still to be 8 forwards, but when it happens during the match I am not sure it's feasible : a prop goes off, and an outfield player has to join the scrum?

As a referee I would ref it as per my earlier post.

 

[Pinky]

How many players need to be in an uncontested scrum?

Red have 16 players (1 sub, a back) but no FR replacement. Their LHP gets injured, has to go off. They bring on their replacement (the back). That is fine. Then there is a scrum. Must be uncontested as Red have no FR to scrummage. They have to go to 14 men.

Can they scrummage with 7 in the uncontested scrum? And if so, can Blue also drop to 7?

If Red then lose their THP, they go to 13 players, again, can they scrummage with 6?

Or are Red forced to have 8 in the uncontested scrum and therefore have a reduced back line?

TH, if red do not have a FR replacement (he may be on the field) then they can only have 15 players and the sub should not be allowed on at all. If a FR player then goes off they are down to 14 men.

 

[Thunderhorse1986]

crossref - I specifically asked for guidance on this from the Zoo league organisers and the reply stated that the intent was that numbers in the scrum would remain the same and a player would be taken from the backs. I can send you that directly on email if you DM me. Maybe not clear and obvious in the regs as there is no definition on "outfield" player.

No issue with any back going into an uncontested scrum from a safety perspective, although backs might not always be welcome to join the back row in a contested scrum... see Johnny May's binding during the Autumn internationals!

 

[crossref]

That's interesting.
What if it's 15 v 13 would they still expect 8 in the scrum?
Will DM my email address