French Red Card

[BikingBud]

A nailed on red card :norc: but found the decision making to get there rather bizarre, especially not assessing the impact, literally, of Jim Ritchie to run in from some distance to catalyse the situation :noyc:

Seemed a total disregard for: the offside line, staying on feet and entering rucks from the hindmost feet. When someone pings out of a ruck at an angle you have to question the where the force came from. Tis was also evident on Sat.

Found delays and indecisiveness around scrums etc broke the game significantly. Heard and saw inputs from WB which altered a quite clearly stated decision from "only a pen" to a yellow card and it seemed quite few other calls came in to prompt for clear offences that were not observed initially.

 

[Rich_NL]

Scotland were lucky not to get a YC at the fracas, I thought.

Williams didn't have a great game, decision making was slow and not always spot on, and there were some odd KO/backwards calls. This in cobtrast to a couple of excellent games at the WRC... perhaps he was a bit intimidated at having WB on the side line.

 

[irishref]

RC nailed on.

I'm thinking RC for the Scottish player running in from a distance after the whistle.

 

[beckett50]

I felt that in deciding the Red card - that was entirely justified for the French #3 - the officials lost sight of the fact it all kicked off because the Scottish #6 came in from a distance to get involved.

The irony is that WB started the conversation by pointing this out, but then in the decision making for the red it got overlooked.

 

[crossref]

I felt that in deciding the Red card - that was entirely justified for the French #3 - the officials lost sight of the fact it all kicked off because the Scottish #6 came in from a distance to get involved.

The irony is that WB started the conversation by pointing this out, but then in the decision making for the red it got overlooked.

spot on. I think if WB had been reffing it would have been a RC for France, and a YC for Scotland

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

The oddest call for me was just after the red card restart, Scotland set up a ruck, as ball becomes available, a Scottish player is about to join it legallyto try to protect ball/create the ladder and ref says no you can't join!
Well legally he can, it is up to the ref to call use it if the ball is available, doesn't stop player legally joining.

 

[belladonna]

The oddest call for me was just after the red card restart, Scotland set up a ruck, as ball becomes available, a Scottish player is about to join it legallyto try to protect ball/create the ladder and ref says no you can't join!
Well legally he can, it is up to the ref to call use it if the ball is available, doesn't stop player legally joining.

Oh, snap! I spotted this too just now, watching on catch-up. I just started a new thread on it as I thought the rules must have changed and I missed it!!

 

[Phil E]

Agree with others, a Yellow for kicking it all of and a Red for the punch.
I thought the earlier French Yellow for the tip tackle should have been a Red, the player came down right on his head and neck.

 

[didds]

Unconnected to this, but two early awards for Scotland at the scrum - FK+PK IIRC? Both overheads clearly showed the scottish loose head boring/lost his arse sideways thius not pushig straight etc, turning the French tighthead outside shoulder down and in to collapse.

this was evident from the side view also where you see the fre4nch tight heads outside shoulder driven in and down

didds

 

[Arabcheif]

Unconnected to this, but two early awards for Scotland at the scrum - FK+PK IIRC? Both overheads clearly showed the scottish loose head boring/lost his arse sideways thius not pushig straight etc, turning the French tighthead outside shoulder down and in to collapse.

this was evident from the side view also where you see the fre4nch tight heads outside shoulder driven in and down



didds

If you're going to go down that road, all 7 or 8 players who came running in should be carded. Plus he wasn't that far away. He didn't sprint half the length of the park. He was one of the closest players to the point. He saw 3 French player surrounding 1 Scottish player.

 

[didds]

If you're going to go down that road, all 7 or 8 players who came running in should be carded. Plus he wasn't that far away. He didn't sprint half the length of the park. He was one of the closest players to the point. He saw 3 French player surrounding 1 Scottish player.

I agree but Im not sure what players running in from afar has to do with loose heads boring early in the game ?

 

[Arabcheif]

I agree but Im not sure what players running in from afar has to do with loose heads boring early in the game ?

Apologies, brain fart there. I had a call (I'm at work), got distracted and hadn't notice I had replied to your quote. lol.

 

[didds]

Lol

 

[BikingBud]

If you're going to go down that road, all 7 or 8 players who came running in should be carded. Plus he wasn't that far away. He didn't sprint half the length of the park. He was one of the closest players to the point. He saw 3 French player surrounding 1 Scottish player.

Really?
I had seen a BBC clip where they highlighted Richie under the spotlight. I cannot find that but the first few seconds of this show how far he traveled: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/51795372
He is the furthest of the cluster of the Scotch players inside the 22 and just the other side of Hastings, so yes he has run quite a distance. Furthermore, until he arrives all players are on their feet something that changes rapidly when he bowls in like a wrecking ball. Also at the end you can hear the French captain asking "but what was the beginning?"
Even Andy Nichol appreciates that Ritchie was "at the heart" when watching it live!

For an "impartial" perspective see: https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/ru...s-to-tackle-the-agents-provocateurs-1.4197949

But as long as the sport and the four-man team of officials allow all others to escape scot free, not least Ritchie, for everything that preceded the punch, the disciplinary process is not working.
The mass scuffle was initially sparked by Haouas and the Scotland number eight Nick Haining squaring up to each other, whereupon Haining poked Haouas as his finger came into contact with the eye area of the prop.
Others then joined in, Haining’s action having been spotted by some of Haouas’s team-mates. At this point Ritchie jogs fully 10 paces past several other players to join in the fracas, clattering into the unsighted France hooker Julien Marchand from behind and knocking him to the ground.

and

Before asking for his TMO to show him the origins of the incident, Williams had noted to his assistant Wayne Barnes: “Certainly I’ve seen ‘6’ white come from a long distance to engage.” But that action, and Ritchie clattering into the back of Marchand, was not shown again, and as the replays focused solely on the punch by Haouas, Williams and co seemed to forget about Ritchie’s provocative role.

 

[didds]

Whilst not "perfect" isnt this what citing panels are for?

Or do citings have to be provided by a team to be considered? Rather than a citing officer watching the game afterwards and making recommendations?

didds

 

[Dan_A]

Watching this live, the first thing we saw was actually a few good shots being thrown by the Scottish 6. Seeing the replays you can see that this was in retaliation to the punch thrown by the French prop, but never-the-less I am surprised they went completely unpunished, especially given the Scottish 6 had run in to join the melee, contributing to the flare-up. I was thinking Red for French prop and yellow for Scottish 6, but the latter's actions weren't even discussed???

 

[didds]

I was thinking Red for French prop and yellow for Scottish 6, but the latter's actions weren't even discussed???

see my #15

??

didds

 

[chbg]

Whilst not "perfect" isnt this what citing panels are for?

Or do citings have to be provided by a team to be considered? Rather than a citing officer watching the game afterwards and making recommendations?

didds

The threshold for a citing is RC. Thus YC-able actions escape (to avoid over-loading the system?).

 

[didds]

I'll start again.

How is anybody cited?

Is it if the oppo cites them?
or does some citing officer review the game and cite from there?

didds

 

[Arabcheif]

@ Biking bud. I'm wondering if you've ever played sir. You look up and your team mate is surrounded by 4 players from the opposition, you go and help them. Or you're team mate will not trust you. So you'd be as well moving onto a different team. Keep doing that and you'll soon run out of teams.

My points was Richie ran in from about 10m away, he didn't sprint in and charge in like you suggest. Yes he pushed the player who had a hold of Haining, but like I said above, this is a natural reaction to defend one's team mate. He didn't run from 30-40m+ away and charge in with his shoulder. If the other 3 French Players didn't get involved I have a feeling that no-one else would've got involved. So to counter your argument, it was the 3 French players who escalated by joining in grabbing Hainings in the first place. Surely they should've stayed out of it too, that's what cause Ritchie and the other 2 Scottish players to go the the aid of their team mate. So should all 6 of those players be YC'd or just the French Players who got involved initially?