French scrums....

[macleod33]

I'm a new member to this forum. I'm a french referee, near Bordeaux, refereeing from level 6 downwards.
These's been a lot of discussions over here concerning the CTS sequence at the pro level. Last season, most scrums had to be re-set a great number of times. This season, things are radically different. There are hardly any re-set scrums but most scrums end up either with a FK, PK and/or sin-bin. A few stats : on 14 scrums, 11 weren't played. 13/14 PKs per match. After 2 days of TOP 14, an average of 4-5 scrums per match are played correctly. The refs are being very strict but everybody's complaining.
I reckon the problem stems from the initial impact. Any FR will want to win the impact and if they don't, will collapse, bore in or any other cheating available.
These last few years, after many very serious injuries, a new sequence was created for all games from level 4 downwards. The sequence was slightly changed last season. Basically, there is no more impact!
On "CROUCH" (flexion), the FRs are temple against temple, second row+flankers one knee on the ground.
On "SET" (placement), the FRs join without impact and the other players settle down.
On "PAUSE" (stop), players get ready
On "PLAY" (jeu), the scrum half has 3 seconds to introduce the ball.
Players stop pushing when the ball has past one of the FRs.
The main advantage is that as there is no more impact, players have to get back to the scrum basics and PUSH!!! From a refs' point of view, there's still a lot of things to look out for but for the security of the players, it's great.
It would be interesting to know if there are other variations on the CTS sequence elsewhere.
Maybe if this type of sequence was introduced at the pro level, maybe things would be easier for everybody.

 

[Womble]

Have to agree, I'll give it 5 years max, IMO thats the way we are heading, or we could referee the feed again and get front rows to contest the ball not the hit!!! epper:epper:

 

[Dixie]

Welcome to the forums McLeod33.

I'm a little confused by the sequence you are describing, particularly in relation to stopping the push once the ball has gone beyond a FR. But it sounds as though the French have returned to the good old days of the 1970's, when the scrum would settle so everyone was comfortable before the ball came in. There are many on here who would consider that an unalloyed Good Thing.

How's your neck?

The Kurgan (AKA Dixie)

 

[OB..]

McLeod33 - I have been advocating roughly that for some years. All we need to do is get rid of the first sentence in Law 20.5 which tells the scrum half to throw the ball in as soon as the front rows come together. Then we could concentrate on Law 20.1 (j) which says the scrum should be stationary and parallel before the ball comes in.

The players would have to learn to co-operate a little to get the scrum steady, which will reduce the hit, and there will be no advantage in "winning" the hit, because if you move forward, the referee will simply tell you to move back a bit.

 

[Davet]

I agree with OB

 

[TigerCraig]

I always stand at the tunnel with the scrum half behind me for the engage - his signal to feed is whan I step away.

I tell the players pre-match that I'm prepared to stand there for the whole game and not let the ball in unless they are stable and stationary. Now I only do up to Under 18's, but funnily, the scrums are generally stable and stationary.

 

[Ian_Cook]

I like the look of this

On "CROUCH" (flexion), the FRs are temple against temple, second row+flankers one knee on the ground.
On "SET" (placement), the FRs join without impact and the other players settle down.
On "PAUSE" (stop), players get ready - this looks like compliance with 20.1(j)
On "PLAY" (jeu), the scrum half has 3 seconds to introduce the ball.

Not so sure about his however

Players stop pushing when the ball has past one of the FRs.

Good at lower levels perhaps (not sure what level 4 is in France, is that Federale Deux?), but it is killing the contest in the scrum, so I can't see the elite liking it much.

 

[Davet]

Tiger Craig - I always found this the best approach. And not just for age grade rugby.

 

[Simon Thomas]

I agree with OB

and I third OB's suggestion/comment :biggrin:

 

[macleod33]

For ian-Cook : Level 4 is Federale 2. concerning the pushing, there is a category (B) where you can push for upto 1.50m for the gain of the ball. It's slightly better than the cat. C+D. For info, cat.B is U21, U19 (professional clubs), U17 (certain Federal clubs).

 

[ChrisR]

From the original post: "The refs are being very strict but everybody's complaining."

And therein lies the problem. It's no longer a contest for possession, it's now a contest for the PK/FK.

Stop rewarding the mischief and the problems will go away.

And OB's approach is a start but not the end. If the front rows go down before the feed or the ball becomes unplayable then simply restart. If the FR goes down after the ball has been won and it's available then let it be played.

This doesn't mean that you ignore foul play, just be sure of what you whistle.

 

[Phil E]

If the front rows go down before the feed or the ball becomes unplayable then simply restart. If the FR goes down after the ball has been won and it's available then let it be played.

The Law doesn't allow that.
It's a safety issue and as such is non-negotiable.

[LAWS](h) Scrum collapse. If a scrum collapses, the referee must blow the whistle immediately so
that players stop pushing.[/LAWS]

 

[Davet]

we do see it at elite level, but the guys there are professionals and trained, and capable of dealing with it - at anything below elite level I would expect to hear the whistle very quickly. A ref who did try to play on would have an "interesting" post-match chat.

 

[L'irlandais]

I'm a new member to this forum. I'm a french referee, near Bordeaux, refereeing from level 6 downwards...

Hello macleod33,
Welcome to the forums. (Check out our French language section.) Level 6 is Honneur isn't it?

Comité Côte d'Argent, that's where Loïc hails from too.

Details of the "Règles Spécifiques FFR" - Catégories C et D can be downloaded (in French) for those interested.

 

[macleod33]

Hello macleod33,
Welcome to the forums. (Check out our French language section.) Level 6 is Honneur isn't it?

Comité Côte d'Argent, that's where Loïc hails from too.

Details of the "Règles Spécifiques FFR" - Catégories C et D can be downloaded (in French) for those interested.

Hi there,
Yes, I'm from Cote d'argent where our good friend Loic is from. We're preparing for the new season starting next week-end by the traditional fitness tests, followed by a good booze-up and maybe a bit of info for the 2012-2013 season.

PS : Level 6 is Honneur.

 

[macleod33]

A few more stats :
for the first 3 days of TOP14 => 50% of all scrums are penalised (mainly PK). 10% are replayed
for the first 2 days of UK premiership => 25% of all scrums are penalised. 20% are replayed
for the first 4 days of NZ NPC => 17% of all scrums are penalised. 25% are replayed

 

[OB..]

A few more stats :
for the first 3 days of TOP14 => 50% of all scrums are penalised (mainly PK). 10% are replayed
for the first 2 days of UK premiership => 25% of all scrums are penalised. 20% are replayed
for the first 4 days of NZ NPC => 17% of all scrums are penalised. 25% are replayed

Number of matches? Since there wre less than 100 in each case, percentages tend to exaggerate the situation.

 

[L'irlandais]

OB (4 x 7 = 28 matches over the first 4 days of the Top 14.)

More worringly, (perhaps)

• 91% of Front row players say they don't understand refereein'
• 76% say they are unhappy with the way the scrum is being refereed.
  (This comes back to the old chestnut, that in France a dominant scrum, used to get the rub of the green. Now referees are more likely to be asking themselves are they (the dominant scrum) legal?
• 78% (of front row players) felt the problem was lack of training for refs.

One trainer even complains (yesterday) that none of the elite refs had ever played in the front row, which explains (for him) why they get the wool pulled over their eyes so much. He says all elite clubs cheat in the front row.
But then that's hardly a scoop, is it?

Source Rugbyrama (in french)

 

[OB..]

OB (4 x 7 = 28 matches over the first 4 days of the Top 14.)

More worringly, (perhaps)

• 91% of Front row players say they don't understand refereein'
• 76% say they are unhappy with the way the scrum is being refereed.
  (This comes back to the old chestnut, that in France a dominant scrum, used to get the rub of the green. Now referees are more likely to be asking themselves are they (the dominant scrum) legal?
• 78% (of front row players) felt the problem was lack of training for refs.

Source Rugbyrama (in french)

Thanks. Presumably over 10 scrums per match, so using percentages isn't too bad.

 

[Phil E]

91% of front rows don't understand anything!