Front row brief

Accylad


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I am going mad looking for this!

Last night part of ToT for cup game. The ref says to the other AR who he had been AR for the previous night "I noticed you did not brief the front row last night". No came the reply, "not required by Law so to do".

I said, you really should you know..... Not required, don't do it came the emphatic response.

So I go looking.

It is not a law. I can't see it in RFU regs. I have searched posts on here.

Where does it say you MUST brief the front row?

I stand by to be deluged with astonished members who can't believe I can't spout the answer but there we are, I don't know and can't find it:shrug::shrug:

Help please!

Ps I always do!
 

OB..


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Prior to the 2000 re-write the law said "He must not give any advice prior to the match", which some people took to mean any pre-match brief was illegal.

My recollection is that when the new calls came out referees were told they should always include the procedure in their briefing. By now most referees mention it in passing rather than in detail.
 

Balones

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I can always remember a very experienced ref who had reffed what was called first class rugby in the old days advising a 5th team player who had volunteered to ref, when asked what he should do was told, " blow the whistle to start the game and blow the whistle to end the game. In between apply some laws that you know and keep everyone safe." It seems to me that that is all that most refs are required to do under the laws. Everything else is down to you to aid your management. :D
 

crossref


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we have had this discussion before
- there is no Law or Regualtion saying that the ref must give a front row brief
- it is well established as best practice to do a front row brief
- (but with less agreement about exactly what must/should/should not be said)


In a court, say, I think the line of questioning that would trip up or your ref is
- do your society advise everyone to do a Front Row Brief?
- yes
- you accept that it is best practice ?
- yes
- so why didn't you do one.
 
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menace


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we have had this discussion before
- there is no Law or Regualtion saying that the ref must give a front row brief
- it is well established as best practice to do a front row brief
- (but with less agreement about exactly what must/should/should not be said)


In a court, say, I think the line of questioning that would trip up or your ref is
- do your society advise everyone to do a Front Row Brief?
- yes
- you accept that it is best practice ?
- yes
- so why didn't you do one.

Except when it goes like this.
In a court, say, I think the line of questioning that would not trip up or your ref is
- do your society advise everyone to do a Front Row Brief?
- I don't know I don't attend dev meetings. Ive not heard it and they've not given me any written doco about it?
- you accept that it is best practice ?
- no..the scrum pack have been coached so they know what to do?
- so why didn't you do one.
- didn't we just go through that? Oh did you know there's this little book with all the laws of the game and it's not in there!
 

crossref


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@menace - yes, indeed if those were honest answers.

In reality though it would be a very unususl ref who
- on the one hand has detailed knowledge of the Laws and Regs, and exatly what is and isn't required
- but on the other has no idea at all about what other refs all do, and the best practice/training advised by his union or society

I am not saying that such a ref might not exist!


A better defence might be yes I am aware that PMB are advised, but could get no definitive statement of what should be in it .. different advice I got was conflicting and confusing. I ascertained from the Laws/Regs that they are not actually mandatory, so in the face of this confusion decided not to do one.
 

Browner

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Or, " it was so incredibly brief, its often missed" :shrug:

if you subscribe to the view that it aids scrum "management" then other than the time saving, why dispense with it?
 
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OB..


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Except when it goes like this.
In a court, say, I think the line of questioning that would not trip up or your ref is
- do your society advise everyone to do a Front Row Brief?
- I don't know I don't attend dev meetings. Ive not heard it and they've not given me any written doco about it?
- you accept that it is best practice ?
- no..the scrum pack have been coached so they know what to do?
- so why didn't you do one.
- didn't we just go through that? Oh did you know there's this little book with all the laws of the game and it's not in there!
Assuming that the referee has never been assessed? Perhaps you have even fewer assessors than we do.
 

menace


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Assuming that the referee has never been assessed? Perhaps you have even fewer assessors than we do.

Well Aust is a big place...with some way out places that may not have many assessors/coaches.

But I was merely pointing out that word of mouth may not go as far as we might hope in the absence of written directives/laws!
 

beckett50


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Accylad, it isn't in the LotG; but...

I believe that it is good practice to brief the front rows, because it will not only help in your game management but also identify the FR replacements.

I presume this AR did not pre-match team talk, and didn't even talk with the Captains other than pose the question "Kick or ends?".

Beggars belief.
 

Accylad


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Accylad, it isn't in the LotG; but...

I believe that it is good practice to brief the front rows, because it will not only help in your game management but also identify the FR replacements.

I presume this AR did not pre-match team talk, and didn't even talk with the Captains other than pose the question "Kick or ends?".

Beggars belief.

Don't know - wasn't at the previous match.

Thanks for the input everyone. Useful.

When I deliver refereeing courses for the RFU I will continue to tell them they should to a PMB....
 

crossref


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Accylad will you tell them they *shoikd* do one, or that they *must* do one?
Is there anything specific that you tell them must be in the PMB. Or can they say what they like?
 

Accylad


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Accylad will you tell them they *shoikd* do one, or that they *must* do one?
Is there anything specific that you tell them must be in the PMB. Or can they say what they like?

I always tell them that they MUST check stubs. I tell them there should be a front row brief that as a minimum covers the engagement sequence. Both are covered in practical sessions so they get the chance to check each other studs and give each other briefing.
 

RobLev

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Except when it goes like this.
In a court, say, I think the line of questioning that would not trip up or your ref is
- do your society advise everyone to do a Front Row Brief?
- I don't know I don't attend dev meetings. Ive not heard it and they've not given me any written doco about it?
- you accept that it is best practice ?
- no..the scrum pack have been coached so they know what to do?

So you didn't know what was best refereeing practice, and you took no steps to find out?

- so why didn't you do one.
- didn't we just go through that? Oh did you know there's this little book with all the laws of the game and it's not in there!

Not a good look...
 

menace


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Yes Roblev QC, I'm sure there are many other cross examination questions a lawyer can and will use to try and nail someone to the cross. I wasn't trying to run a mock trial. I already pointed out with OB what I was trying to demonstrate with my tongue in cheek counter example.
 

crossref


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my feeling is that if it ever happens that a PMB is a central question in a court case, the issue won't be whether or not the referee should do one, I thick it's extremely well established best practice and indeed normal practice for a ref to do a PMB, which includes the front row. To the extent that any ref not doing a PMB is remarked upon -- at games I watch if the ref doesn't do a PMB people immediately wonder if he is a 'proper' ref, and in terms of confidence from players and coaches he is starting on the back foot even before he blows the whistle.

No, the question will turn on the content, and WHAT was said. And what, if anything, MUST the ref say at a PMB?

This is much more hazy, and I think a prosecutor would find it very hard to demonstrate any *specific* content that everyone agrees must said. In fact opinions differ, PMBs differ, there is not prescription and the *contents* of a PMB are pretty much discretionary.


In another thread people talked about having a sending-off script. I don't think we need that, but if the front-row brief really is thought to be important for saftey reasons, perhaps refs should have precise script for that element of the PMB.
 
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Browner

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Has there ever been an actual court case where a PMB (or its specific content) has been so scrutinised , or is the fear of a future ' court test' merely hypothetical ????

If anyone knows of one I'd like to read it.
 

menace


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my feeling is that if it ever happens that a PMB is a central question in a court case, the issue won't be whether or not the referee should do one, I thick it's extremely well established best practice and indeed normal practice for a ref to do a PMB, which includes the front row. To the extent that any ref not doing a PMB is remarked upon -- at games I watch if the ref doesn't do a PMB people immediately wonder if he is a 'proper' ref, and in terms of confidence from players and coaches he is starting on the back foot even before he blows the whistle.

.
Not sure I agree with that...I reckon 95% of players don't give 2 sh!ts about the PMB. They've heard the same crap a million times and just dial out within 15sec. You can see it in their eyes. I bet they wished it didn't happen.
 

crossref


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Not sure I agree with that...I reckon 95% of players don't give 2 sh!ts about the PMB. They've heard the same crap a million times and just dial out within 15sec. You can see it in their eyes. I bet they wished it didn't happen.

I don't disagree with that - but nevertheless if you don't do one, they wonder what's going on.

my feeling now is that there are a few admin-like things they DO want to know, things that are different from each ref and they wan to know how you will do it
- when is the ball out at a ruck?
- how are you going to mark the lineout (mark the centre line or mark the defending line)
- if a lineout isn't contested does it matter how straight the throw is (I have been asked that three times this season!)

what glazes them over is anything that is the same each week (crouch - bind -- etc)


My observation about them being expected I was thinking about the youth games I watch, where I see a variety of refs of differnet standards - appointed soc refs, experienced club refs, kids just starting out.

At these games coaches/players/parents are quick to form a judgement. Everyone knows that refs do a PMB, and any ref NOT doing a PMB is usually someone lacking in confidence, and not a good sign.

As a very wise person once told me: if before the game you look and sound like a ref, then when you blow the whistle there is more chance they'll treat you like a ref.
 

Browner

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Not sure I agree with that...I reckon 95% of players don't give 2 sh!ts about the PMB. They've heard the same crap a million times and just dial out within 15sec. You can see it in their eyes. I bet they wished it didn't happen.

That's how I view their listening, however I see it mainly for my benefit & culpability avoidance.

The Front Rowers benefit to them is that if they follow it then theyre less likely to get paralysed which means after each game that they play they should come up to me and thank me for the safe management of the scrum, allowing them to "give a shi!t next week" without a personal carer being needed !!
 
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