Game Managment

[taff426]

Gents,

I have come across a conundrum this season regarding youth Matches.

I have refereed quite a few Youth matches this season, and each match has seen me produce at least 2 :yc: per match, with a few :rc: also for repeated technical offences.

I have spoke to both captains as part of the pre match briefs, explained that they are responsible for their teams discipline, and if I have any issues I am going to speak to them about this.

The above invariably means nothing to Youth Captains, they might as well have been whilst I spoke to them. During the match I speak to the captains regarding their teams conduct (if needed), this has no effect on their team so I give a team warning, still no effect, so I issue a :yc:.

Again, still no effect as the penalties keep mounting, so I speak to Captain again, with no effect, so I issue another :yc:.

Just to compound matters even further, one of the :yc: offenders has come on, committed another technical offence, so gets a second :yc: followed by :rc:.

Obviously spectators and coaches are becoming very frustrated and blame me (as you do).

I tried a different tactic last night, 2 :yc: before HT so I decide to speak to coaches, ask them to speak to their teams, to which they reply "We aren't here to referee your game, you have to manage the game not us, we are only coaches".

I know the cards have been warranted, because I have been assessed on the majority of the games, and I was picked up for not :yc: sooner!!!!!!

Am I managing the games correct, or do any of you have any other angles I can work from?

It is getting to the point now where i am giving that many cards I am starting to doubt myself and ask myself if I am being too harsh :Nerv: as no one else seems to be having this problem!

 

[Deeps]

Taff - it might be an idea to speak with your colleagues that referee the same teams, are they experiencing the same problems that you seem to have? How do they deal with them; what is different about their management style, are they able to spot potential difficulties early and manage them by having an early quiet word perhaps?

I am fortunate to referee lots of U18 schools and U19 Colts rugby. I endeavour to head problems off before they happen, spot the leery players that are flexing their muscles and let them know (with a smile) that I am aware of them. I will give praise too where it is due e.g. a well executed tackle, a well worked move, as thanks for a tackler that rolls out of the way when I ask him to. I try and show that I too am enjoying the game as much as the players are and generally empathise with what they are trying to achieve; positive, authoritative yet friendly body language.

Talk the hookers into getting their feet placement right to avoid a 'foot up', encourage proper scrum binding, talk the scrum halves into behaving properly before you have to penalise them. If the offence is minor, technical and of no consequence to the play, do you have to call it? Deal with it by a word afterwards perhaps,

Have a word with Mr Norling if you can or find tapes of some of his games to check out his style - there must be some around somewhere.

 

[PaulDG]

Gents,

I have come across a conundrum this season regarding youth Matches.

What do you mean by youth?

 

[Dixie]

Taff426 - tough problem!

I know the cards have been warranted, because I have been assessed on the majority of the games, and I was picked up for not sooner!!!!!!

let's start with the assumption that this is correct. If the cards are warranted for the offences that are occurring, then the only issue is whether you can "manage" the game better to prevent to the offences. That has a two-fold criteria - your ability to communicate what you want effectively, and their ability to react to your effective communication.

It goes without saying that if they don't have the latter, no amount of the former will have any effect at all. It could be that they just haven't been coached properly.

Your communication is not something I can comment on, as I've no idea of your style. I would agree, however, that expecting the captains to work with you to control their team is unrealistic, and so I'd drop it (it has proved itself ineffective). When you have a request to impart, impart it to all the forwards (time off) and ask the SH to tell his backs. Ditto with a formal warning.

I know the cards have been warranted, because I have been assessed on the majority of the games, and I was picked up for not sooner!!!!!!

I too do a lot of junior games, and can't recall ever getting to this point. I understand that satisfactory performance in junior games is a prerequisite of moving up to adult. I wonder whether the "gatekeeper" role of the assessor has led to unrealistic expectations of the players' technical capabilitites at junior levels? In other words, while it may be apt to ping reasonable players for repeated technical offences, is it possible that an unrealistic standard is being set for those who are learning the game. You don't stipulate the age groups concerned.

 

[taff426]

Sorry gents, the age is U19s!

 

[SimonSmith]

Well, you could try this:
One card early may save you three cards later.

If you're late with the cards because you're trying to manage your way out of trouble, you'll end up chasing the discipline, and that's no-win.
Referee like a bast@rd for 10 minutes, and get the YC early to set the stall out.

Tended to work when I did U19.

(and try to learn to spot the players who are going to be issues and work doubly hard on managing them)

 

[OB..]

I know the cards have been warranted, because I have been assessed on the majority of the games, and I was picked up for not :yc: sooner!!!!!!

You said it.

Well, you could try this:
One card early may save you three cards later.

If you're late with the cards because you're trying to manage your way out of trouble, you'll end up chasing the discipline, and that's no-win.
Referee like a bast@rd for 10 minutes, and get the YC early to set the stall out.

Have you tried it?

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

Have you tried talking to the coaches??
If there was a run of penalties in a youth match which were going to result in a succession of Yellows and potentially reds I'd call a temporary halt to it and get the coaches on, Tell them what your seeing and get them to explain to their teams what is going on then restart. Holding the captain totally responsible is not going to work in most youth teams.

 

[crossref]

IME the coaches say: "it's the other lot - you should have YC one of them ages ago"
both coaches

 

[Deeps]

Have you tried talking to the coaches??
If there was a run of penalties in a youth match which were going to result in a succession of Yellows and potentially reds I'd call a temporary halt to it and get the coaches on, Tell them what your seeing and get them to explain to their teams what is going on then restart. Holding the captain totally responsible is not going to work in most youth teams.

Ciaran, I think you will find that our Taff tried that and the coaches clearly chose not to be helpful:

I tried a different tactic last night, 2 before HT so I decide to speak to coaches, ask them to speak to their teams, to which they reply "We aren't here to referee your game, you have to manage the game not us, we are only coaches".

 

[Taff]

.... I tried a different tactic last night, 2 :yc: before HT so I decide to speak to coaches, ask them to speak to their teams, to which they reply "We aren't here to referee your game, you have to manage the game not us, we are only coaches".

Charming.

That's fine in theory, but those coaches will be the first to complain if they lose a game when they were 2 or 3 players down.

 

[Account Deleted]

Well that's OK! Tell them that unless they calm their players down there will, probably, be more cards including reds. They might have a problem raising a team the following week. Their call!

 

[Davet]

Well that's OK! Tell them that unless they calm their players down there will, probably, be more cards including reds. They might have a problem raising a team the following week. Their call!

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Taff426 - how old are you?

It seems a sad fact that coaches tend to be dismissive of and frankly rude to young refs - take no shit, and take no prisoners. Be polite of course - but don't feel you have to back down in the face of age and authority, put your point across firmly and TELL thenm that their teams ARE their responsibility.

They are the adults, and they have a responsibility to the young people in their care to teach them the game properly. If they are unable or unwilling to do so then perhaps they should consider their position, in light of the report that will be submitted to the club and the CB about their players behaviour and their apparant condoning and encouragement of that behaviour.

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

missed that deeps, no problem then, you've done your best get them off if the offence warrants it the coaches will perhaps be more helpful next time

 

[taff426]

Im 31, in my 3rd year of refereeing.

Not sure if it is me but it appears that the youth this season are really bad, could be the fact I referee L10/9 in England, I also AR at some L6/7 fixtures. I then do WRU L2 on weekends. Could be me refereeing too harshly, however, i am confident that all the offences are material and as such warrant the cards

 

[Davet]

OK so not getting crap for being too young, then.

Are you out of step with your peers at the levels you ref at? Only real way to find out is to go and watch some games at your level rather than ref, and get someone to assess you when you do ref.

 

[taff426]

Had 6 assessments already this season, and thankfully, they have all been quite good:swet:, only had one down assessment by my standards, and that wasn't particularly bad, so don't think so Davet.

 

[Davet]

So - you are in step with the level you are reffing at, you aren't suffering from being too young.

Do you enjoy the games? Do you appraoch them with a smile and a glad heart?
You say the trouble comes in Youth matches - and the comment that really bothers me is

"I decide to speak to coaches, ask them to speak to their teams, to which they reply "We aren't here to referee your game, you have to manage the game not us, we are only coaches".

"

I cannot understand why both coaches would be so unco-operative, is there soemthing you do before the game that effectively winds them up? How long is your pre-match brief, how relaxed are you when making it? Are you - ven though correct in your decisions overly authoritative?

If the answer to all these is no, then it ain't you, it's them. Have you talked to colleagues who have reffed these same teams? Do they report similar issues?

 

[taff426]

So - you are in step with the level you are reffing at, you aren't suffering from being too young.

Do you enjoy the games? Do you appraoch them with a smile and a glad heart?
You say the trouble comes in Youth matches - and the comment that really bothers me is "

I cannot understand why both coaches would be so unco-operative, is there soemthing you do before the game that effectively winds them up? How long is your pre-match brief, how relaxed are you when making it? Are you - ven though correct in your decisions overly authoritative?

If the answer to all these is no, then it ain't you, it's them. Have you talked to colleagues who have reffed these same teams? Do they report similar issues?

I have effectively been promoted so I'm pretty confident my refereeing isn't the issue :wink:

I never get any of these issues in the senior (2nds) that I currently referee (will get my real test in Jam with my first Nat Div 6 match).

All my pre match brief consists of is the usual to the front row, speak to 9 about geting the ball into the scrum immedeatly, and regarding quick tap, and outside half about my hand being up in the lineout. A quick chat to Capts before KO and thats it.

I do enjoy my refereeing, the only issue I have is that I come off the pitch doubting myself after such games, constantly penalising and so many cards. I had 1 :rc: and 5 :yc: in one match for instance.

I do referee Army fixtures and dont get any of these issues there (mind you the discipline is pretty good there as you would expect!

 

[Stuartg]

I wonder if you've got yourself into a downward spiral here. I ref at level 9/10 and also do a lot (and I mean a lot) of youth fixtures. In more than 30 years of reffing I've only given 16 or so YCs (about 8 for youth games) and not a single RC. I try to be firm but, as others have commented, look as though I'm enjoying it (and I usually am).

Perhaps you need to give more of an impression that you are working with them to help them have a good and enjoyable game. Do you smile and occasionally use humour to establish working relationships? For example when a SH puts the ball in really crooked I'll ask if he's taking the mickey (with a smile). How much non-verbal communication are you using - looks, pointing, nodding and shaking of head, thumbs up? How much praise are you giving when things do go well - e.g. well rolled away No 6, great tackle 11, that's in straight 9 and we'd like it like that every time, great try 14, good effort with the conversion etc. Perhaps you need to build some rapport so that when things do go wrong you have something 'in the bank' to fall back on? Why always talk to the coaches - why not treat the players as more grown-up and make them realise that what happens on the pitch is their responsibility and a result of choices that have made. Give captains the job and have higher expectations of them. Just some thoughts gleaned from both teaching and reffing for 30+ years.