Gate too narrow to defend or attack

[Patrick]

My learned comrades, I have a problem.

I noticed a few years ago, coaches started teaching their players to do something called the 'pencil' when brought to ground.

I'll describe it: ball carrier is tackled but rather then falling and forming a 'V' to pop, pass or roll the ball, the ball carrier falls in a straight line, virtually parallel to the Line-of-Touch, arms outstretched with ball pointing toward his own Try line.

In essence, looking like a pencil.

At this point, the Gate is no wider then the widest part of the tackled players shoulders or hips (if he's a Hooker!).

Here's the rub, if the first person to arrive is from the tackled players team and he straddles his team mate on the pitch in preparation for contact, his feet and arms are outside the gate. PK - right?

If the defense arrives first and straddles the Tackled player - PK - right?

I know many of you will offer suggestions on how to legally defend or attack this but for right now, I just need to know your thoughts on handing out the PKs (or not giving them).

 

[Phil E]

Here's the rub, if the first person to arrive is from the tackled players team and he straddles his team mate on the pitch in preparation for contact, his feet and arms are outside the gate. PK - right?

If the defense arrives first and straddles the Tackled player - PK - right?

No and No.

The gate is something which you enter through, as long as they come in along the pointy ends of the pencil, they are coming through the gate. It doesn't matter if they are wider than the gate.

What they can't do is come in along the long sides of the pencil, metaphorically going around the gate posts not through them.

 

[crossref]

also (for me at least) even if he is making like a total pencil, I'd take the 'gate' as being, say, a metre wide.

I don't think the idea of the Law is force players into a tiny corridor, one person wide.


(that would be a driving maul! epper: )

 

[Patrick]

VERY interesting replys!

In our Game Management booklet (let me know if you need a link to it) this is what we see for the Gate AND what is considered outside the Gate:

Clearly, we (USA Rugby) does not agree that a Gate is universaly 3 feet wide (I've never heard that before either).

Also, in the description, is says, 'No part of a player's body (including the arms), may enter the tackle through any other area'.

More thoughts???

 

[Taff]

Don't forget that the tackler also determines the width of the gate - not just the tackled player.

 

[Patrick]

Don't forget that the tackler also determines the width of the gate - not just the tackled player.

Of course, for sure and it was one of the things I was going to bring up if this topic took off.

I see three possibilities for the Tackler:
1) Tackler goes to ground and in something of a perpendicular relation to the Tackled player defines the 'wider Gate'
2) Tacker Assist, does not go to ground, Gate width is defined by 'penciled' Tackled player
3) Tackler goes for the legs and goes down basically in line with the pencil (releases, gets up, Gate is NARROW)

Two of those three still ask the same question, is the Gate with defined by the Tackled players widest points?

 

[RobLev]

VERY interesting replys!

In our Game Management booklet (let me know if you need a link to it) this is what we see for the Gate AND what is considered outside the Gate:

Clearly, we (USA Rugby) does not agree that a Gate is universaly 3 feet wide (I've never heard that before either).

Also, in the description, is says, 'No part of a player's body (including the arms), may enter the tackle through any other area'.

More thoughts???

You may find that USAR's GMGs are not universally considered on this forum to be definitive...

 

[L'irlandais]

Sir Ian McGeechan coaches the Gate in this asics video.
As long as arriving players curved round into the gate, no PK.

 

[crossref]

I just pulled 1m out of thin air, my point is that we have to be practical

I agree that someone making like a pencil creates a narrower gate,

But common sense says the gate can't be made so narrow that, as you say, it's impossible for anyone to come through it. (or so narrow that you would have to shuffle through sideways!)

 

[Patrick]

You may find that USAR's GMGs are not universally considered on this forum to be definitive...

Oh, good god, NO, I don't think that but, come on, be nice, we're trying. Trust me, I have a couple problems with it as well BUT, in the Law, it certainly does NOT mention anything about entering the breakdown from up to 1 meter wide.

Regardless 15.6 (c) is so vague and lacks any clear definition of the Gate other then to state: '...[FONT=fs_blakeregular]from directly behind the tackled player or a tackler closest to those players’ goal line'.

[/FONT]I interpret 'directly' (and for the that matter, 'immediately' used through out the Law) perhaps differently.

There is so much slop at the breakdown these day, I find great solace in 'directly' to bring some order to what has become a dangerous and multiple infraction event.

I haven't called a match yet that doesn't have four or five infractions at the breakdown - I just call the first one and move on.

I'm getting away from the tenet of my original post - BUT, was trying to fill in why I'm so interested in this subject.

The breakdown is a huge problem in rugby today and I'm trying to approach it one problem at a time (don't even get me started with diving over, charging, intentionally collapsing, loitering OR no binding, etc.....)

 

[OB..]

Do you really want the law to be interpreted in such a way as to make it impossible to enter a pencil tackle legally? If not, then why do so?

 

[Patrick]

Sir Ian McGeechan coaches the Gate in this asics video.
As long as arriving players curved round into the gate, no PK.

GREAT video - thanks for that.

BUT, if you took the blue tackling dummy and turned it 90 degrees, where is your Gate?

I think this video speaks very nicely to the problem I'm having. The way he teaches his players is EXACTLY how I coach (yes, I coach also) my players (all youth).

Still need help....

 

[Patrick]

I agree that someone making like a pencil creates a narrower gate,

But common sense says the gate can't be made so narrow that, as you say, it's impossible for anyone to come through it. (or so narrow that you would have to shuffle through sideways!)

Do you really want the law to be interpreted in such a way as to make it impossible to enter a pencil tackle legally? If not, then why do so?

Look, I agree, but, coaches are not spending time and effort to teach their players a maneuver that doesn't achieve a predictable outcome - no coach would do that.

There can only be one reason a coach would teach this move - to get the ref to award a PK against the offending defensive team.

Like I said at the beginning, I don't want to litigate WHY coaches are doing this or how to defend against it. I need help deciding how to deal with it. The other parts aren't my job if I have the whistle.

Moving on, I could see this as yet another technique to slow the flow of the match down and could also, to some extent, say it resembles a sly sealing off tactic. If I can't get to the damn ball legally, smells a lot like an infraction.

Thoughts?

 

[Treadmore]

There can only be one reason a coach would teach this move - to get the ref to award a PK against the offending defensive team.

There might be more than one reason, for example this move puts the ball a metre closer to your own players. If there is an opposition tackler on the floor as well then the gates you are thinking of can be quite widely spaced apart - and space is a valuable asset

 

[thepercy]

There might be more than one reason, for example this move puts the ball a metre closer to your own players. If there is an opposition tackler on the floor as well then the gates you are thinking of can be quite widely spaced apart - and space is a valuable asset

If the tackling team want a wider gate, they are free to do so, with their tackler also defining the gate. Even within the USARugby GMG's common sense needs to be applied, I do not think penalizing marginal gate entry offenses is obvious or expected.

 

[Decorily]

There can only be one reason a coach would teach this move - to get the ref to award a PK against the offending defensive team.

Remember that the PK could, and should, just as easily be awarded against the tackled players side. Don't see it too often!!

 

[Patrick]

Remember that the PK could, and should, just as easily be awarded against the tackled players side. Don't see it too often!!

Couldn't agree more!

If your Prop or anybody from your pack is close and hasn't been informed about this little move, and storms in, they should be PK'd just like anybody else.

I'm still struggling with the legality of giving a PK if the attacker or defender is outside the Gate (no matter how they arrive).

 

[Treadmore]

If the tackling team want a wider gate, they are free to do so, with their tackler also defining the gate. Even within the USARugby GMG's common sense needs to be applied, I do not think penalizing marginal gate entry offenses is obvious or expected.

Maybe I wasn't clear, I meant the space between the two gates not the width of either gate

 

[Phil E]

I'm waiting for Simon Smith to blow a gasket :biggrin:

 

[SimonSmith]

After my day at work I'm all out of gaskets.

The GMG was a valiant attempt to bring commonality to USA refereeing.

Problems include, but are not limited to:
It contracts outside the law.
It removes common sense.
It is not read by enough people, referees included.
Coaches over here....There are a lot people who want to try things because the law says they can, or try to be clever inside the law, without asking if it's actually good rugby. Yes, because that genius idea you just came up with that's transformative? Yeah, Hansen and Cheika, it didn't occur to them, but it did to you.

Oh, there's 78 pages on what's wrong with refereeing over here. But I'm still sober.