Gloucester v Saracens

didds

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Im sure we can all find a million pictures of a million players all doing something similar.

Im no OF fan per se, but there is a lot of what appears to be anti-OF bile around this.

the real issues are all game related:
* why was that bizarre "more than 5 phases" or whatever ruling believed by an entire To4 ?
* why does disciplinary have such lenient attitudes generally?
* this tackle school stuff is a cop out wrt pro players,

THOSE are the issues. IF any specific players have "form" then a decent application of something meaningful would sort that out better than opportunities to ignore the laws, equity, and ways to game the system post ban.
 

didds

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quote from twitter

I’m noticing a weird phenomenon. It seems that disciplinary panels are too harsh on players from teams I support and too lenient on players from teams I don’t.
 

crossref


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The cock up in this one was the Team of 4 somehow failing to understand/ follow the protocol
 

Volun-selected


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Let's stop pretending that discipline is about actual discipline, or about player safety. It's about getting the product back out on the field as quickly as possible under the wrapping paper of "Look how seriously we're taking this".
I wonder whether an analysis by a statistician would show any pattern or correlation between the length/severity of disciplinary panels based on proximity to big money matches or tournaments, relative fame or popularity of the player, etc

Or would it show zero correlation to anything and just highlight this is all over the place?
 

Stu10


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I agree it deserved a red card if the protocol is followed, but overall I feel this has been turned into more than it deserves because OF is involved. The Glo player was fairly low since he was rising from picking up the ball, OF was in the guard position and lowered his height throughout the tackle action. You could make an argument that he was making an attempt to wrap looking at his arms in this photo, though he is clearly leading with the shoulder. Sadly we see tackles like this every week in every elite comp, but the social media furore in this instance is definitely above average.

Was it a high force tackle? He did not take any steps forward, though he is driving his body forward into the tackle... IMHO the need/desire to always make a dominant tackle is the biggest issue in Elite rugby... when you have a split second to react and adjust your height and body shape while trying to make a dominant tackle, you move forward and shorten the reaction time, and the player tends to rise into the tackle. Alternatively, you make a passive tackle... hold your ground, drop your height, let the ball carrier run into you and then you wrap and bring them to ground behind you... this will rarely result in a high tackle, and the low force will be a mitigation if it is high.

1673536346664.png

Personally I think the tackle by Tuilagi on Allen is the bigger news... the height of the tackle appears to have spared Tuilagi from even being penalised, but I say he was out of control and hit Allen directly in the head with his shoulder and there was no arm wrap. Is there normally mitigation for a no-arm tackle direct to the head?

1673536632078.png
 

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belladonna

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But why OF was suspended for 4 weeks rather than matches? RFU regulation 19 seems pretty clear it should have been matches, at least to my reading. If they'd have done this, there would have been no ambiguity about whether he could play in the Calcutta Cup and Steve Borthwick wouldn't have been put on the spot.

19.11.15 A Disciplinary Panel shall ordinarily in their written decisions set out [...] the expiry date of the suspension setting out the number of weeks, or where the Player has a specific playing schedule that is known at the time of the imposition of the sanction, a list of the Matches [...] for which the Player is suspended provided that, in any event, the Player would, on the best information available at the time of the decision, be scheduled to play in a Match [...].

 
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SimonSmith


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I remember, many years ago, red carding a player who had representative duties coming up. The powers that be were quite interested to know if I really thought it was a red card, or maybe, just maybe, I had over-reacted. :) Red card stood
When I was in charge of our Ref Soc back in the States, one of my refs sent in a RC report and then called me a day or two later most upset thet tha Discipline Chair had called to say that it wasnlt really a red, and he was dismissing it.

I wrote what was, even by my standards, a scathing email to the Union Pres and the rest of his Exec. Two days after that, the DC position was vacant...
 

crossref


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But why OF was suspended for 4 weeks rather than matches? RFU regulation 19 seems pretty clear it should have been matches, at least to my reading. If they'd have done this, there would have been no ambiguity about whether he could play in the Calcutta Cup and Steve Borthwick wouldn't have been put on the spot.

19.11.15 A Disciplinary Panel shall ordinarily in their written decisions set out [...] the expiry date of the suspension setting out the number of weeks, or where the Player has a specific playing schedule that is known at the time of the imposition of the sanction, a list of the Matches [...] for which the Player is suspended provided that, in any event, the Player would, on the best information available at the time of the decision, be scheduled to play in a Match [...].

It was matches

2x Europe games

Then, Because he is not in the England squad, the next round of the premiership counts as the last of three matches and he is free to play for England

BUT If he makes the England squad, then he will be camp for the premiership match, so it doesn't count, so the next game that counts is the england game and he can't play

Solution
They will put him in the squad and release him for the Saracens game (so that he can't play in it)
 
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BikingBud


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Surely the real issue is the lack of an accurate record, we can all see and have commented frequently that his "technique" is poor and dangerous. Some will have us believe it is a measure of his commitment! But due to lack of citing for previous marginal transgressions he apparently has a good disciplinary record.

Unsure if any active intervention by coaches has occurred but it doesn't seem to have changed his approach. So far from being a witch hunt maybe its now catching up with him.

High profile players have a responsibility to the game, amongst others Farrell is one who does not sustain a good profile for the game.
 

belladonna

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It was matches

2x Europe games

Then, Because he is not in the England squad, the next round of the premiership counts as the last of three matches and he is free to play for England

BUT If he makes the England squad, then he will be camp for the premiership match, so it doesn't count, so the next game that counts is the england game and he can't play

Solution
They will put him in the squad and release him for the Saracens game (so that he can't play in it)
Ah ok, thanks. It's been reported in a lot of media as "weeks" which was a bit confusing. Doesn't really seem fair to count a match in which he wouldn't normally play as a suspension but I guess there you go.
 

crossref


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Ah ok, thanks. It's been reported in a lot of media as "weeks" which was a bit confusing. Doesn't really seem fair to count a match in which he wouldn't normally play as a suspension but I guess there you go.
They have got themselves into a reall mess about weeks and matches
 

Stu10


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Surely the real issue is the lack of an accurate record, we can all see and have commented frequently that his "technique" is poor and dangerous. Some will have us believe it is a measure of his commitment! But due to lack of citing for previous marginal transgressions he apparently has a good disciplinary record.

Unsure if any active intervention by coaches has occurred but it doesn't seem to have changed his approach. So far from being a witch hunt maybe its now catching up with him.

High profile players have a responsibility to the game, amongst others Farrell is one who does not sustain a good profile for the game.
I doubt it is feasible to keep track of every player's questionable challenge that did not result in a card. However, I would be interested to see what Farrell's stats are compared to other players, but it won't happen... he certainly has a high number of questionable tackles, but he has also got nearly 400 appearances at elite level. Like him or loathe him, there is no denying that a high tackle by OF attracts more attention than most.

It was matches

2x Europe games

Then, Because he is not in the England squad, the next round of the premiership counts as the last of three matches and he is free to play for England

BUT If he makes the England squad, then he will be camp for the premiership match, so it doesn't count, so the next game that counts is the england game and he can't play

Solution
They will put him in the squad and release him for the Saracens game (so that he can't play in it)
The Telegraph and The Guardian have both published articles in the past few days saying that Borthwick must "do the right thing" and not pick OF for the Calcutta Cup... considering injuries to Smith and Ford, OF is the first choice 10 with few other options right now... would any other international coach omit their first choice fly-half in the same situation?

Is it negligent of Borthwick to NOT pick the best team he can if the powers-that-be have technically allowed him to?

 

crossref


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For me SB can take advantage of any loophole

If he always follows the rules even when they work to his disadvantage, he is entitled to also follow the rules when they work to his advantage

It's up to WR / RFU to write better rules
 

Ian_Cook


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I agree it deserved a red card if the protocol is followed, but overall I feel this has been turned into more than it deserves because OF is involved. The Glo player was fairly low since he was rising from picking up the ball, OF was in the guard position and lowered his height throughout the tackle action. You could make an argument that he was making an attempt to wrap looking at his arms in this photo, though he is clearly leading with the shoulder. Sadly we see tackles like this every week in every elite comp, but the social media furore in this instance is definitely above average.

Was it a high force tackle? He did not take any steps forward, though he is driving his body forward into the tackle... IMHO the need/desire to always make a dominant tackle is the biggest issue in Elite rugby... when you have a split second to react and adjust your height and body shape while trying to make a dominant tackle, you move forward and shorten the reaction time, and the player tends to rise into the tackle. Alternatively, you make a passive tackle... hold your ground, drop your height, let the ball carrier run into you and then you wrap and bring them to ground behind you... this will rarely result in a high tackle, and the low force will be a mitigation if it is high.

View attachment 4506

Personally I think the tackle by Tuilagi on Allen is the bigger news... the height of the tackle appears to have spared Tuilagi from even being penalised, but I say he was out of control and hit Allen directly in the head with his shoulder and there was no arm wrap. Is there normally mitigation for a no-arm tackle direct to the head?

View attachment 4508
The fact that Allen dropped the high ball, fumbled it forwards and then fell to his knee after Tuilagi had already lined up low to take him around the waist might have had something to do with it.

As for Farrell, I don't know how he keeps getting away with little or no punishment for his repeated shoulder charges. FFS, the guy is a recidivist offender. People used to claim Richie McCaw had an invisibility cloak when he was pilfering the ball at the breakdown, but Farrell's foul play immunity takes it to a whole new level!
 

shebeen

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The fact that Allen dropped the high ball, fumbled it forwards and then fell to his knee after Tuilagi had already lined up low to take him around the waist might have had something to do with it.

As for Farrell, I don't know how he keeps getting away with little or no punishment for his repeated shoulder charges. FFS, the guy is a recidivist offender. People used to claim Richie McCaw had an invisibility cloak when he was pilfering the ball at the breakdown, but Farrell's foul play immunity takes it to a whole new level!
People say South Africans should stop complaining about the supposed harsh treatment they get from world rugby as it's just a figment of imagination.

Owen Farrell could be exhibit A as the response.

I'd throw in the French cockerills coming home to roost in the RWC 2023 hosting decision as exhibit B now too.
 

Stu10


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The fact that Allen dropped the high ball, fumbled it forwards and then fell to his knee after Tuilagi had already lined up low to take him around the waist might have had something to do with it.

It was still a no arm/tucked arm tackle though from Tuilagi though. It would still have been an illegal tackle if Allen had caught the ball and stayed on his feet.
 
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