Goal Line or 22 Drop out

[Volun-selected]

But to Old Pig's point ... is a GLDO more or less advantageous than a 5 metre scrum?

Alas, often a function of how that particular pack of forwards is performing that on that specific day against that specific team? We’ve all had matches where one side is much more dominant than the other that the weaker team would be crazy to take a 5m knowing they’ll lose possession, and then get driven back into goal.

Conversely, I've also had several (generally youth) teams that couldn’t kick to save their lives…

 

[Balones]

But to Old Pig's point ... is a GLDO more or less advantageous than a 5 metre scrum? The law doesn't say you have to play with it, just that you get tactical or territorial advantage.

To answer the question outside of laws, it all depends on the strengths or weaknesses within your team and those of the opposition.

 

[Pinky2]

I am sure we have been here before, and there may not have been clear consensus, but for me, the first offence is the KO, which happened in the field of play, so any playing of advantage is from the scrum. I think the majority consensus, and my view, was that touching the ball down in goal would not be seen as playing advantage, so you would always go back for the scrum rather than the DO, which used, of course, to be 22m.

 

[number11]

It's a 5m scrum because knocking on doesn't count as putting the ball into the in goal

I think this is correct. A knock on isn't taking the ball in goal legally, i.e. not carried or kicked. Unless there's tactical or territorial advantage it's back for the five meter scrum.

I don't believe that making the ball dead to get a GLDO is a legal way of gaining advantage.

 

[Stu10]

No, that is not right. In your OP, it is a 22 drop out.
Goal line drop out only if:
1. Held up in goal
2. Knock on by attacking team in goal, or
3. Ball made dead by defenders after ball put into in goal by attackers

I agree with Dickie... in the OP, although the defender makes the tackle, it is the attacking side that have made the ball dead (ie touch in goal), therefore not a GLDO. Since it was carried in-goal by attacking team, it must be a 22DO.

 

[Dickie E]

Ok. Another 2 hypotheticals:

1. Attacking player knocks on just short of opponents' goal line. Ball crosses goal line and same player tries to recover ball but knocks it on again and ball goes dead. What's the restart?

2. Attacking ball carrier near opponents' goal line passes the ball. Its not a good pass and goes forward, over the goal line and into touch in-goal. Whats the restart?

Bear in mind 7.2.d:
"The offending team commits a second or subsequent infringement from which no advantage can be gained. The referee stops play and allows the captain of the non-offending team to choose the most advantageous sanction."

 

[Marc Wakeham]

But to Old Pig's point ... is a GLDO more or less advantageous than a 5 metre scrum? The law doesn't say you have to play with it, just that you get tactical or territorial advantage.

Is it like the old KO into in goal? That was a scrum if touched dow was a scrum for the KO and not a drop out 22 as that was "too much" advantage.

 

[crossref]

Ok. Another 2 hypotheticals:

1. Attacking player knocks on just short of opponents' goal line. Ball crosses goal line and same player tries to recover ball but knocks it on again and ball goes dead. What's the restart?

2. Attacking ball carrier near opponents' goal line passes the ball. Its not a good pass and goes forward, over the goal line and into touch in-goal. Whats the restart?

Bear in mind 7.2.d:
"The offending team commits a second or subsequent infringement from which no advantage can be gained. The referee stops play and allows the captain of the non-offending team to choose the most advantageous sanction."

1 - options as per 7.2.d so choice of 5m scrum or GLDO. (what a great question!)
2 - 5m scrum, defending ball. 7.2.d doesn't apply as as only one offence.

 

[Dickie E]

[QUOTE7.2.d doesn't apply as as only one offence.
[/QUOTE]
No, there's 2 infringements. 1 in FoP followed by 1 in-goal

 

[crossref]

[QUOTE7.2.d doesn't apply as as only one offence.

No, there's 2 infringements. 1 in FoP followed by 1 in-goal
[/QUOTE]
no, in (2) there is a KO (infringement) and then ball goes into TiG - that's not an infringement, so 7.2.d doesn't kick in, no options.

 

[Stu10]

No, there's 2 infringements. 1 in FoP followed by 1 in-goal

no, in (2) there is a KO (infringement) and then ball goes into TiG - that's not an infringement, so 7.2.d doesn't kick in, no options.
[/QUOTE]
I disagree. I am confident in saying that a knock on that subsequently rolls into touch will typically result in the non-offending team having the choice of scrum or lineout, so I don't see why this should be different.

 

[crossref]

Good one

But it is different Because touch in goal is different from touch

 

[Stu10]

Good one

But it is different Because touch in goal is different from touch

Touch and touch in goal are different, but I'm not sure that makes the decision/options different. Is there any specific law or guidance that helps confirm the right approach here?

 

[Stu10]

no, in (2) there is a KO (infringement) and then ball goes into TiG - that's not an infringement, so 7.2.d doesn't kick in, no options.

Laws 18.1 and 18.2 appear to present touch and touch-in-goal to be equal with regard to being an infringement.

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

good question, I'd offer defending captain GLDO or 5M scrum. If the scrum was getting hamerred i'd assume they'd take the GLDO.

 

[Balones]

good question, I'd offer defending captain GLDO or 5M scrum. If the scrum was getting hamerred i'd assume they'd take the GLDO.

The option for a knock-on into touch is a scrum or a lineout?
This scenario is just one of those where the laws in one part of the book are not clearly in line with other parts. Where would you offer a lineout?
Basically as far as I rationalise it is you can’t offer a GLDO for an offence that takes place outside of the goal area. Hence the correct answer is a 5M scrum and that’s what I expect the referee to give and have seen, from my experience, what they do give.

 

[crossref]

question : where is the Law that says that a regular knock on into touch = options for the opposition, scrum or lineout?

tried to look it up to see what it says, precisely, and for the life of me can't find it.

 

[Balones]

question : where is the Law that says that a regular knock on into touch = options for the opposition, scrum or lineout?

tried to look it up to see what it says, precisely, and for the life of me can't find it.

11.2?
In old money it was Law 12, page 83!

 

[crossref]

11.2?

perfect thanks ! I searched for 'option' and didn't think of 'opt' .. I think it's the only option in the book that is described without using the word option!

So it says

11.2 It is a knock-on when a player, in tackling or attempting to tackle an opponent, makes contact with the ball and the ball goes forward. Sanction: Scrum (if the ball goes into touch, the non-offending team may opt instead for a quick-throw or lineout).

and as I thought it applies when a ball goes in touch, not when it goes into touch in goal.

(and touch in goal is never followed by a quick throw or lineout anyway)

 

[Marc Wakeham]

good question, I'd offer defending captain GLDO or 5M scrum. If the scrum was getting hamerred i'd assume they'd take the GLDO.

DEPENDING on the status of the game / score etc I might go down that line. If it was a league / cup game I'd want to get the call right irrespective of the quality of the scrums.