Grab tackle involving legs

[4eyesbetter]

Re : Re: Grab tackle involving legs

Disagree; look at this screengrab from the final video, (the one which shows the break): the tackler's left knee/shin is making contact with the ball carrier's ankle, which takes him down. That (with the studs catching in the turf rather than sliding across it) is what breaks the ankle IMHO.

View attachment 3235

Back, and to the left. Back, and to the left.

 

[Browner]

Hi Menace,

General Disclaimer : this is an opinion piece, agreeing with it isn't compulsory !

IMO, That example is a kind of 'jump-in' tackle, used to
a) counter a BC fend
b) fell a player (moreoften, but not exclusively bigger )
c) chop away the BC's legs from underneath him
Using velocity as the main feature.

the speed of approach when combined with the use of legs/feet/knees(hips) make this a highly effective ' felling technique' , essentially a player is jumping at the lower limbs of a BC & using his body as a missile to aid the destabilisation of the BC . Its not identical to, but it has similar injury capability (arguably worse with increased velocity) to the banned cannonball tackle, or the NFL "roll up" tackle (**) where the legs were noted to be so vulnerable.

I suggest that we shouldn't be swayed by the upper body grasping attempt of the 'tackler'.

More common is seeing a ' would be tackler' who is struggling to bring down a BC resort to scissor wrapping his legs around a BC to assist in the felling, this injury clip is a ratcheted up version of the same felling technique compounded by the velocity of arrival, its almost a kung fu assault below the hip!... IMHO.

In my mind it needs to be eradicated from the game, tackling was supposed to involve grasping your opponent & bringing him to ground 'without' using your legs.

So I'd penalise this every time and twice on Sundays!

Menace, I hope the limb we are out on is very strong, as others need to join us on it!



PS.... As an aside, many other sports "techniques" are now employed in coaching, wrestling, judo, MMA (throat strangulations!) , I even know some pro players have been coached in techniques pioneered in cage fighting, with 'winning/dominating the collision' being the holly grail.

(**) remember many people protested long into the night that those techniques were also fine !

 

[OB..]

OB - this was your response to BFGs judo throw....but I'm very interested in your opinion/thoughts on the tackle that this thread is about? Do you think he deliberately used his legs to bring the BC down?

It certainly looked deliberate to me, in which case it is a RC (regardless of the actual injury).

 

[thepercy]

I found myself nodding at everything you wrote..until the last part of the last sentence.

If you are thinking that parent is trying to 'help you reflect on your errors' then you are being defensive. If you were to explain to that parent just what you explained in the rest of your post I daresay you would get that very message through to a significant portion of them and help change attitudes.
We all know that parents can get way too involved in their kid's sports, but surely communication will change attitudes far better than rules or non engagement.
I fully respect anyone's right to not engage in a post match argument, and I also fully expect team management to support you if someone goes down that path and you choose not to engage.
What I am suggesting is that if you have a pre-ordained attitude of not engaging then this only serves to widen the gap between the referees and the remainder of the game.
Maybe I am overly optimistic regarding behaviour but I can tell you that many parents/ players etc would love to hear what you said in the first part of your post and be totally accepting of that. Instead they just think you are being aloof (or worse).
It is an ingrained problem right across the game and even worse at pro level where trial by media is par for the course.
You do a great job being out there refereeing. Be proud of that and own it. Be part of the game instead of being a game in isolation with other refs.
I really feel for the refs I see turning up to games by themselves then wandering back to their cars straight after by themselves again because they aren't included or want to avoid possible confrontation. Rugby isn't (or shouldn't) be about that.
Sometimes those other folk want to talk to you about things that happened in the game because they are actually trying to be inclusive. I'd love to see clubs and schools be more inclusive with refs and drive behaviour around it as well. FFS, if we can bash the crap out of each other on the field as players, then have a drink together after, surely we can do the same to the ref.
It takes two to tango though.

In the US, often sports officials scurry to their vehicles or locker rooms and are gone within minutes of the game ending. Basketball and Football can often be seen running off the court/field, for their safety or to avoid the inevitable confrontation. At higher levels they even have a police/security escort. It really is a shame, and I hope rugby refereeing never comes to this.

 

[Pegleg]

I'm sorry, but that is the type of arrogant defensive approach that creates the 'us and them' feeling at games. If you really want referees to be a seperate entity to the rest of the game then by all means isolate yourself like this.
Put is this way, if you made an on field call and the player suggested that you attended a few coaching sessions and had a better fitness regime because otherwise you aren't qualified to comment you'd be rather miffed I guess?
It could well be that the parent was being a tosser, but it could also be that he is genuinely interested in understanding what happened. It's most likely that his son didn't feel like he could approach you and ask so his father did instead.

I have experienced this myself as both a coach and parent when trying to ask a question of a ref well after the game, when the tension has dissipated. It's not meant to be a criticism, or thinking that I know better. It can be quite enlightening to have the ref explain his reasons and you can usually understand the situation and thought process better. It humanises things. But if the ref takes your suggested approach, I usually walk away thinking I was probably right in my thinking and he was being defensive because he wouldn't/ couldn't admit error.

The father's words, as reported indicate that to be tosh!

You're a fool, he's been doing that all season" and walked off!

There is no attempt to "understand" diddly squat in that comment! If he was genuine he have said something more like: " Can you explain why you had a problem with my Son's tackle that you penalised? It just that he's been allowed to do that throughtout the season so I'm a bit confused that he was pingged today."

 

[Pegleg]

I can see where you are coming from, but I don't think you understand - in the slightest - what refereeing kids is like.

On the one hand, we are aware of a duty of care for safety. On the other, we all would like to see a good game of rugby (continuity of play and fair contest).

Speaking for myself, I do not care about who wins or loses, and I do not even care if I make howlers in law (1), but I do care that kids or for that matter any adult players - including pros - don't get serious injuries. I therefore also care - when I am not refereeing, but discussing after the match or online - about the example pros or other adults give, on TV or simply in a club situation.

That said, if a parent comes round after the match - however politely - I am not interested in them trying to "ask a question". Not because I have an arrogant defensive approach, but because it adds no value whatsoever. If I made mistakes, I will reflect on how to do better, but I don't need a parent to help me to do that.(2)

1; You should care. howlers in Law can lead to a trainwreck and a serious discipline issue!

2; That's just arrogant sorry. Talking with others will often help you see things that you are "too close" to see otherwise.

 

[Rushforth]

Pegleg, thank you for your reply.

Above all, thank you for picking a couple of sentences to reply to and completely ignoring the paragraphs they are in.

Thank you for giving me a good reason to ignore you.

 

[crossref]

In the US, often sports officials scurry to their vehicles or locker rooms and are gone within minutes of the game ending. Basketball and Football can often be seen running off the court/field, for their safety or to avoid the inevitable confrontation. At higher levels they even have a police/security escort. It really is a shame, and I hope rugby refereeing never comes to this.

In England if they don't like you, they send the most boring official in the club to 'entertain' you at bar (with stories about how it was in his day, and 'what's your home club? Oh, you must know Basher Jennings then, played for your lot in the 1960s! what, you don't know him ??' ) until eventually you go away.
In fact - that can happen when they do like you!

 

[Pegleg]

Pegleg, thank you for your reply.

Above all, thank you for picking a couple of sentences to reply to and completely ignoring the paragraphs they are in.

Thank you for giving me a good reason to ignore you.

I've not ignored the context. I did not edit the quote so people could see that!

 

[Crucial]

The father's words, as reported indicate that to be tosh!



There is no attempt to "understand" diddly squat in that comment! If he was genuine he have said something more like: " Can you explain why you had a problem with my Son's tackle that you penalised? It just that he's been allowed to do that throughtout the season so I'm a bit confused that he was pingged today."

Hi, I think you have mixed my post up with another. I agree about the father in the example given. My little rant was after (and quoting) a post that promoted a general attitude, not this specific case.

I do not envy the after match possibilities that refs face and understand why some would rather avoid confrontation. To me that is the clubs job, to welcome and be inclusive toward the ref and discourage poor behaviour.
What I don't see as helpful is having a set attitude of not discussing the game with anyone without it becoming official, or the set attitude of feeling that all discourse is an unwarranted criticism.

 

[Pegleg]

The Point is that the father did not want to discuss and that, sadly, is the norm. Fire across the bows and walk out knowing the ref will need to keep it "professional". I am reading Browner's comments (and your reply to him) in that context.

As Indicated in my reply to Rushforth, if a supporter / parent / coach or whoever is genuinely interested in discussing a point from the game I see it as only right so to do (AT THE RIGHT TIME!!). For one it may enlighten them as to the laws of the game. Also I'm not so up my own as to think I can't learn from others. They see the game from a different angle to me and at times I've gained usefull insights from spectators.
I do need the help of others to develop my game because it can indeed add value. Just because I'm getting towards the end of my refereeing career does not mean I can stop learning.

 

[Taff]

Harvey Fierstein

I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me, or disagreeing with me. :biggrin:

 

[ChrisR]

Regards the OP: It's a bit hard to see without slo-mo but I don't think the tackler intended the trip. I think he intended to slide in behind him and drag him down. I think his foot must have come through directly on the ankle.

As for the legality? Well, who would have PKd if there had been no contact with the ankle? Not me, so I wouldn't expect a PK here.

If the tackler had wrapped his legs around the legs of the BC then I think we have dangerous play.

As for BFG's incident: I can't see how a judo hip throw (O goshi) can not be dangerous on a rugby pitch as the thrown players body goes through horizontal to land on the shoulder/back. In judo the thrown player breaks their fall by striking the ground with the hand and arm an instant before the shoulder lands.

Here's a link to an animation of the throw: http://judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ogoshi.htm

BFG, is that what it looked like?

As to BFG's handling of the player? I'm OK with strong admonishment for youth.
As to the parent? The parent is an ass and I'd have to think I'd be looking to have a word with the coach.

Regards Rushforths post: Yes, some parents are total jerks but you won't improve the herd by ignoring 'em.

 

[SimonSmith]

Pegleg, thank you for your reply.

Above all, thank you for picking a couple of sentences to reply to and completely ignoring the paragraphs they are in.

Thank you for giving me a good reason to ignore you.

Thus, somewhat ironically, validating Pegleg's premise

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

I was watching a S15 game from April - Cheetahs v Reds - and after 1/25 Karmichael Hunt (ex RL before Browner helpfully points it out) chases his own kick which is fielded by Coenie Van Wyk. Hunt grabs CVW around shoulders/upper body as CVW steps inside him. KH then rotates around the back of CVW and his legs land on the calf of CVW as the two land on the floor. CVW 's ankle goes over (seen in slo mo) and he is helped from the field never to return.

Similar to OP but lesser outcome in terms of the severity of the injury. No PK for dangerous play but KH was done for regaining his feet and contesting the ball without releasing.

 

[Pegleg]

Thus, somewhat ironically, validating Pegleg's premise

It was the perfect support for my comment.

 

[TheBFG]

Regards the OP: It's a bit hard to see without slo-mo but I don't think the tackler intended the trip. I think he intended to slide in behind him and drag him down. I think his foot must have come through directly on the ankle.

As for the legality? Well, who would have PKd if there had been no contact with the ankle? Not me, so I wouldn't expect a PK here.

If the tackler had wrapped his legs around the legs of the BC then I think we have dangerous play.

As for BFG's incident: I can't see how a judo hip throw (O goshi) can not be dangerous on a rugby pitch as the thrown players body goes through horizontal to land on the shoulder/back. In judo the thrown player breaks their fall by striking the ground with the hand and arm an instant before the shoulder lands.

Here's a link to an animation of the throw: http://judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ogoshi.htm

BFG, is that what it looked like?

As to BFG's handling of the player? I'm OK with strong admonishment for youth.
As to the parent? The parent is an ass and I'd have to think I'd be looking to have a word with the coach.

Regards Rushforths post: Yes, some parents are total jerks but you won't improve the herd by ignoring 'em.

had he gone for the Hari O'goshi, I'd have had a real problem :wink: been a long time since I was in a dojo!

 

[Phil E]

been a long time since I was in a dojo!

But not that long since you were in an all you can eat oriental buffet :chin: :biggrin: epper:

 

[crossref]

had he gone for the Hari O'goshi, I'd have had a real problem :wink: been a long time since I was in a dojo!

Mornington Crescent!

 

[Browner]

I was watching a S15 game from April - Cheetahs v Reds - and after 1/25 Karmichael Hunt (ex RL before Browner helpfully points it out) chases his own kick which is fielded by Coenie Van Wyk. Hunt grabs CVW around shoulders/upper body as CVW steps inside him. KH then rotates around the back of CVW and his legs land on the calf of CVW as the two land on the floor. CVW 's ankle goes over (seen in slo mo) and he is helped from the field never to return.

Similar to OP but lesser outcome in terms of the severity of the injury. No PK for dangerous play but KH was done for regaining his feet and contesting the ball without releasing.

Clip?