Hand off - excessive force?

[crossref]

It's not just new wording ,OB !

WR specifically say it's a new Law , and specifically say it's a lesser offence than striking .. see my post #7 above !

 

[Rich_NL]

Introducing "excessive force" as a prohibition in fending is problematic as "excessive" is entirely subjective and non technical.

"Dangerous", "intentional", "advantage", "immediately", "material"... if you don't want to make subjective judgements, refereeing rugby is going to be very hard.

 

[OB..]

It's not just new wording ,OB !

WR specifically say it's a new Law , and specifically say it's a lesser offence than striking .. see my post #7 above !

Punching and striking are specific offences. If a hand-off amounts to one of those, then the fact that it was an attempted hand-off is irrelevant. It is wrong to say that a hand-off cannot lead to a red Card.

 

[ChrisR]

"Dangerous", "intentional", "advantage", "immediately", "material"... if you don't want to make subjective judgements, refereeing rugby is going to be very hard.

Quite agree, Rich, and in each of these areas we try to identify the criteria that would deem it as such. And, there is (and will be for "excessive") some disagreement on what the criteria should be. The "intentional knock-on" is an example.

So . . . my point being is that adding "excessive force" is an unnecessary complication.

 

[crossref]

Punching and striking are specific offences. If a hand-off amounts to one of those, then the fact that it was an attempted hand-off is irrelevant. It is wrong to say that a hand-off cannot lead to a red Card.

?? But World Rugby themselves say that offences under this new Law , hand off with excessive force , cannot lead to a RC ...

 

[Camquin]

I am finding it very hard to come up with a mental picture of a hand off that has excessive force but is not either a punch or strike.
Almost by definition if the palm is open and the elbow bent it is not excessive force.
And if not it would be a punch or strike.

I am thinking it would have to be a push in the face that caused damage.

 

[OB..]

?? But World Rugby themselves say that offences under this new Law , hand off with excessive force , cannot lead to a RC ...

To me it is obvious that there is a full range of possibilities ranging from a perfectly legal hand-off to a very blatant Red Card offence. The top end is already covered by punching/striking. The bottom end was covered by the addition to the old Law 7. The mid-level sanction is now covered by the new law.

I cannot see a problem.

 

[crossref]

OB.. can you describe an example that falls into the mid level .. ie is not covered by the Law on punching / striking , but nevertheless is worth a PK

That's where most of is are scratching our heads

 

[OB..]

OB.. can you describe an example that falls into the mid level .. ie is not covered by the Law on punching / striking , but nevertheless is worth a PK

That's where most of is are scratching our heads

Scratch away! I think you should use the same criteria as for any other offence - your judgement. If it was not worth a Red Card, you may decide to award a Yellow Card, or even just a penalty. Surely that makes good rugby sense?