hands in the tackle/ruck

[jcas1403]

I am a new referee, I have just finished my playing career. I am struggling to interpret one of the laws of the game, that is the use of hands on the ball in the tackle.

a ball carrier is brought to ground and releases the ball, a member of the opposition then legally puts his hands on the ball but does not pick it up very quickly, a member of the opposition then binds on, a ruck is formed with the player still with his hands on the ball, and the ball is still on the ground. does he have to take his hands off the ball when the ruck forms?

in the same situation, if the non ball carrying player gets his hands on the ball before the ruck forms, but drops it, or pushes it forward, is it still a knock on?

might sound a stupid question, but would rather get them out of the way now thanks

 

[Ricardowensleydale]

As an ex-player non-ref a glance at 16.4 b says "Players must not handle the ball in a ruck except after a tackle if they are on their feet and have their hands on the ball before the ruck is formed.
Sanction: Penalty kick". I will be interested to see how refs inetrpret "after a tackle", is it relevant which player (attacking/defending) has their hands on the ball?

 

[Davet]

If a player gets hands on before ruck forms he, and he alone, can have hands on after the ruck forms.

If he loses it forward then it is a knock on. Though probably it means the opposition will win possession and in my view this is one occasion when a knock on MAY not be material.

It doesn't matter which team he is on.

 

[Ricardowensleydale]

What would happen if the above scenario happened after a kick and chase. That could not be considered "after a tackle". Would the player then be obliged to get his hands off the ball?

 

[The Fat]

What would happen if the above scenario happened after a kick and chase. That could not be considered "after a tackle". Would the player then be obliged to get his hands off the ball?

More detailed description please?
The OP concerns the tackle zone and a player who is legally in a position to get his hands on the ball prior to a ruck forming.

 

[Ricardowensleydale]

More detailed description please?
The OP concerns the tackle zone and a player who is legally in a position to get his hands on the ball prior to a ruck forming.

A player legally legally puts his hands on the ball in open play but does not pick it up very quickly (for example a full back mopping up after a kick with the chasers closing in) a member of the opposition then binds on, a ruck is formed with the player still with his hands on the ball, and the ball is still on the ground. does he have to take his hands off the ball when the ruck forms?

The law says ""Players must not handle the ball in a ruck except after a tackle.....". Is the player obliged to get his hands off the ball?

 

[Taff]

I am a new referee .... might sound a stupid question ..

Trust me, it isn't a stupid question.

What would happen if the above scenario happened after a kick and chase. That could not be considered "after a tackle". Would the player then be obliged to get his hands off the ball?

If it's open play, why would anyone get their mits off the ball? What phase of play are you in? If it's open play - play on.

 

[Ricardowensleydale]

Taff. The above scenario then involved a player binding on to form a ruck. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

 

[Taff]

Taff. The above scenario then involved a player binding on to form a ruck. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

Your previous post was clear, but I'm using my boys iPad (which I'm slow at) and your post 6 wasn't there when I started. :biggrin: In your example, the player with his hands on the ball can keep his hands on it, as he already had his hands on the ball before the ruck was formed.

 

[Ricardowensleydale]

Thanks Taff. I'm just trying to understand how this fits into the rules which say that the only time you can handle in a ruck is after a tackle. I can't find anywhere where is mentions having hands on the ball before the ruck is formed except "after a tackle"

 

[OB..]

Thanks Taff. I'm just trying to understand how this fits into the rules which say that the only time you can handle in a ruck is after a tackle. I can't find anywhere where is mentions having hands on the ball before the ruck is formed except "after a tackle"

As a new referee you will have many more common situations than that to deal with.

If the fullback is picking up the ball when being charged by several attackers it is most unlikely that he will be able to stay on is feet with his hands on the ball still on the ground. He may lose contact with the ball when driven back, or will hold on and get tackled, or an opponent will dive on the ball. As the referee, give it a second or so and it will resolve itself into some thing else.

 

[Dixie]

While RicardoWensleydale's follow-up is both interesting and new, I'm a bit concerned that the OP's point may have got lost, though in truth the 1st two responses accurately sum up the reponse. jcas1403, can you let us know whether you are happy that you've resolved your question?

a ball carrier is brought to ground and releases the ball, a member of the opposition then legally puts his hands on the ball but does not pick it up very quickly, a member of the opposition then binds on, a ruck is formed with the player still with his hands on the ball, and the ball is still on the ground. does he have to take his hands off the ball when the ruck forms?

No. Law 16.4(b) applies, and he may keep his hands on the ball and attempt to pick it up, or smuggle it backwards. No-one else may touch the ball with their hands.

in the same situation, if the non ball carrying player gets his hands on the ball before the ruck forms, but drops it, or pushes it forward, is it still a knock on?

Yes. But see Davet's strong point about materiality and/or advantage. If the ball is now on the opposition side of the ruck, play on.

might sound a stupid question, but would rather get them out of the way now thanks

It's not. tehre are no stupid questions - especially when you are at this stage in your career, where you are wondering how you managed to play the game all those years without apparently having a clue about what was going on. We've all been there

Is it relevant which player (attacking/defending) has their hands on the ball?

No. The third man in may be an atttacker, a defender or may indeed be the tackler; whoever gets hadns on before a ruck forms, may keep those hands on.

 

[jcas1403]

As an ex-player non-ref a glance at 16.4 b says "Players must not handle the ball in a ruck except after a tackle if they are on their feet and have their hands on the ball before the ruck is formed.
Sanction: Penalty kick". I will be interested to see how refs inetrpret "after a tackle", is it relevant which player (attacking/defending) has their hands on the ball?

I have read that, so does that mean if he has his hands on the ball, he can keep them there even after the ruck has formed?

 

[Taff]

I have read that, so does that mean if he has his hands on the ball, he can keep them there even after the ruck has formed?

Yes. From memory, it was changed in the last year or so. As long as a player has his hands on the ball before the ruck was formed, he can now keep his hands on the ball.

If that same player loses his grip on the ball, he can't have a 2nd bite at it once the ruck has formed.

If he hasn't got his hands on the ball by the time the rucks formed - it's too late, he's missed his chance.

 

[Ian_Cook]

I have read that, so does that mean if he has his hands on the ball, he can keep them there even after the ruck has formed?

Yes. In case you are wondering why it was changed, here is the reason.

Previously, everyone had to let go when a ruck formed. This encouraged the tackled players to try to cheat by holding on until team-mates arrived to form a ruck and force the fetcher, who was still on his feet, to let go. It effectively rewarded the tackled player for cheating, and frustrated the fetcher who did everything correctly and still couldn't turn the ball over thanks to the tackled player cheating.

The change means that even after the ruck formed, the tackled player still must release the ball to the fetcher , who must have his hands already on the ball and be still on his feet.

 

[crossref]

The key thing is

Must already have his hands on ball

So I don't think you see it that much, really .. the ruck has to form VERY quickly to catch him just with his hands on ball, but before he gets it away

 

[jcas1403]

The key thing is

Must already have his hands on ball

So I don't think you see it that much, really .. the ruck has to form VERY quickly to catch him just with his hands on ball, but before he gets it away

I would imagine that most of the time the player would have cleared the ball away if he got his hands on it before the ruck forms, and if he hasn't, it is probably because the tackled player has not released the ball.....

 

[Mizar]

While RicardoWensleydale's follow-up is both interesting and new, I'm a bit concerned that the OP's point may have got lost, though in truth the 1st two responses accurately sum up the reponse. jcas1403, can you let us know whether you are happy that you've resolved your question?

No. Law 16.4(b) applies, and he may keep his hands on the ball and attempt to pick it up, or smuggle it backwards. No-one else may touch the ball with their hands.

Yes. But see Davet's strong point about materiality and/or advantage. If the ball is now on the opposition side of the ruck, play on.

It's not. tehre are no stupid questions - especially when you are at this stage in your career, where you are wondering how you managed to play the game all those years without apparently having a clue about what was going on. We've all been there

No. The third man in may be an atttacker, a defender or may indeed be the tackler; whoever gets hadns on before a ruck forms, may keep those hands on.

Thanks Dixie, I'm a newbie ref too and have been looking for a "One Liner" for this situation for ages and this appears to be it.... Ta!

 

[andyscott]

In practice the guy getting his hands on the ball must do something positive, he should be wanting to pick it up, not just leave his hands there, if he doesn't pick it up, he is doing one of 2 things
1. Holding it on the floor, hoping for a holding on penalty
2. Shoving it into the player on the floor, again hoping for a PK.

You also only get one bite of the cherry. If he gets his hands on, good, but if he lets go for a nano second, he can't put them back on the ball