Has Nigel made a mistake?

[Taff]

Re: Re : Has Nigel made a mistake?

That's true dedication to the cause. Trading a potential life in a wheelchair for a RC for your opponent.

In all honesty, I reckon Blue was in very little "danger" and what little danger he was in was mainly self-inflicted. Just my opinion, but watch the video replays, especially in slow motion and draw your own conclusions.

 

[RobLev]

Re: Re : Has Nigel made a mistake?

In all honesty, I reckon Blue was in very little "danger" and what little danger he was in was mainly self-inflicted. Just my opinion, but watch the video replays, especially in slow motion and draw your own conclusions.

Watched and drawn. Beware slow motion replays - life happens at full speed - gravity in particular.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Re: Re : Has Nigel made a mistake?

Yes, that's exactly what I am saying and I believe Taff agrees.
This was an attempt by the Scotland player to get JPP red carded.
The Scotland player puts his hand on the ground then does a pissweak forward roll with tuck.
Watch from 68:53 on game clock.

Yep, Nigel got this exactly right. JPP even changed his grasp on the blue player to try to stop the rotation (watch his left hand from at 1:33:11 on the YT time), and he almost succeeded, but the Blue player did a tuck to try to draw the YC/RC. Crafty, and not in the spirit of the game.

 

[OB..]

Re: Re : Has Nigel made a mistake?

Yep, Nigel got this exactly right. JPP even changed his grasp on the blue player to try to stop the rotation (watch his left hand from at 1:33:11 on the YT time), and he almost succeeded, but the Blue player did a tuck to try to draw the YC/RC. Crafty, and not in the spirit of the game.

IMHO he was trying to make sure he landed on the back of his shoulders rather than his head.

 

[FlipFlop]

For me it wasn't a tip tackle.

Was there a lift - yes
Was there rotation beyound the horizontal from the tackler? No - one of the blue players legs was still on the ground, and the blue player folded at the waist. I expect the blue player was trying to get to ground, rather than be held up.
Was the blue player dropped/dumped etc? No - the SA player put him down as gently as can be expected. (How much more gently could he had put the player down? Not much, so if that isn't exercising duty of care to the tackled player, what is?)

So for me - the question is more - was this a dangerous tackle that warranted a YC? Not in my opinion.

 

[Gracie]

All this nonsense about trying to draw a card based upon slow motion replays seems to overlook the real time speed of the game and a person's natural instinct for self-preservation. Lifted off the ground and upside down the natural instinct I suspect all of us would have had in our playing days is to tuck in and try and soften the landing. The decision is not about intent as NO stated it is about a matter of fact, having lifted the player off the ground did JPP lower the player to ground safely to ground? The answer is that he did not (whether he tried or not is immaterial) the fact is that he did not. By placing himself in this position, JPP risked a minimum of a YC, which was clearly the sanction the TMO felt was correct.

We have to bear in mind the scrutiny on our game for player safety - for me NO got the whole call badly wrong.

On other key points;

The first try looked to have been held up all day long. Law 22.10 - When a player carrying the ball is held up in the in-goal so that the player cannot ground the ball, the ball is dead. There can be no doubt the initial player's attempt was held up - there is not allowance for the next guy in to ground, which is what happened, because the ball was already dead. It looked a very poor decision

Hogg lucky to escape a sanction

I rate NO as a ref and like his humour but his overall performance was left wanting.

 

[crossref]

We know from the panels convened already that the card guidance in the 2009 memo is still current (it's been specifically cited and quoted), so we can look at that

To summarise, the possible scenarios when a tackler horizontally lifts a player off the ground:

- The player is lifted and then forced or “speared” into the ground. A red card should be issued for this type of tackle.

- The lifted player is dropped to the ground from a height with no regard to the player’s safety. A red card should be issued for this type of tackle.

- For all other types of dangerous lifting tackles, it may be considered a penalty or yellow card is sufficient.

Using that, I think that it was clearly type 3, and NO was within his rights to choose either a PK or a YC.

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

We know from the panels convened already that the card guidance in the 2009 memo is still current (it's been specifically cited and quoted), so we can look at that



Using that, I think that it was clearly type 3, and NO was within his rights to choose either a PK or a YC.

D'accord

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

All this nonsense about trying to draw a card based upon slow motion replays seems to overlook the real time speed of the game and a person's natural instinct for self-preservation. Lifted off the ground and upside down the natural instinct I suspect all of us would have had in our playing days is to tuck in and try and soften the landing. The decision is not about intent as NO stated it is about a matter of fact, having lifted the player off the ground did JPP lower the player to ground safely to ground? The answer is that he did not (whether he tried or not is immaterial) the fact is that he did not. By placing himself in this position, JPP risked a minimum of a YC, which was clearly the sanction the TMO felt was correct.

We have to bear in mind the scrutiny on our game for player safety - for me NO got the whole call badly wrong.

On other key points;

The first try looked to have been held up all day long. Law 22.10 - When a player carrying the ball is held up in the in-goal so that the player cannot ground the ball, the ball is dead. There can be no doubt the initial player's attempt was held up - there is not allowance for the next guy in to ground, which is what happened, because the ball was already dead. It looked a very poor decision

Hogg lucky to escape a sanction

I rate NO as a ref and like his humour but his overall performance was left wanting.

I'd be interested in your views when you've removed your tartan tinted glasses :biggrin:

 

[Taff]

All this nonsense about trying to draw a card based upon slow motion replays seems to overlook the real time speed of the game and a person's natural instinct for self-preservation.

I don't think so. In fact while watching it live (ie before the TMO came in) I reckoned it was a "contrived offence". It's just even more obvious in slow motion.

Lifted off the ground and upside down the natural instinct I suspect all of us would have had in our playing days is to tuck in and try and soften the landing.

Except he wasn't "lifted off the ground" was he? He was initially, then White soon realised he was on thin ice and tried letting him down safely. Hell Blue still had 1 foot on the ground when he took a nosedive.

... The decision is not about intent as NO stated it is about a matter of fact, having lifted the player off the ground did JPP lower the player to ground safely to ground? The answer is that he did not (whether he tried or not is immaterial) the fact is that he did not. By placing himself in this position, JPP risked a minimum of a YC, which was clearly the sanction the TMO felt was correct.

It's difficult to "lower a player safely to ground" if that player is hell bent on coming down head first or shoulder first. I reckon the TMO got taken in by the ploy - it seems he wasn't alone. I reckon this is an unintended consequence of having a directive.

... We have to bear in mind the scrutiny on our game for player safety - for me NO got the whole call badly wrong.

We also have to bear in mind that some coaches and players are devious little barstewards and will do whatever they can to gain an advantage.

 

[crossref]

i think that given the protocols that are in place in the RWC, the TMO was correct to stop play and have another look. He's almost bound to do that when someone is tipped over.
watching the video it seemed to me that the TMO thought YC, and subtly made that clear to NO, who understood the unspoken recommendation and made his own decision.

Overall I think it went well. NO could have decided YC, but I think PK was also acceptable, and that's the judgement he made, so ..

 

[Gracie]

I'd be interested in your views when you've removed your tartan tinted glasses :biggrin:

A comment made without sufficient information :big grin: Never assume that because one of us refs in a country we come from that country note I said Hogg should have been sanctioned.

I simply said it as I saw it & know the decision I would have made, which I accept runs contrary to the views of others, but nevertheless remains my interpretation of events.

I note no comments on the ball being held up?

 

[liversedge]

At one point in the game NO called advantage and then went back for tackled player holding on, when the ball was turned over anyway.
It completely baffled me.

Can anyone explain that one ?

(I tried to find video and failed to find the match!)