Watching televised games it appears more and more that the hookers are throwing into lineouts with both feet in the field of play. What is it about rugby that even simple rules are allowed to be ignored, if it becomes fashionable. To me, its should be stringently enforced as it effects flight time and accuracy there is enough advantage with your own throw without adding to it?
[Line out] Hooker with both feet in the field of play?
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Do you mean entirely in the field of play, or just overlapping into the field of play?[LAWS]18.3 d.By a player whose feet are both outside the field of play.[/LAWS]
The former is clearly illegal, and the latter is technically so. However it has been standard practice for many years for the hooker to stand with his feet on the line and overlapping into the field of play. I don't mind this and I see no point in unilaterally deciding to try and change accepted habits.
There is nothing unusual about this. For many years a hand off was technically illegal because you were playing a player without the ball. When you punt or drop kick the ball you release it forwards - again, technically illegal, but you certainly shoudl not set about penalising it.
Marc Wakeham
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Can we not (legaly) kick this spurios nonsense into touch?
Kicking the ball is part of the Laws. Both kicking from hand and drop kicking the ball are both 100% legal and in now way, technical or otherwise, illegal! In fact the laws of the game clearly states they are legall and can in no way be called "technically illegal"?
[LAWS]DDEFINITIONS
D
Drop-kick: After being intentionally dropped to the ground from the hand or hands, the ball
is kicked as it rises from its first bounce.
K
Kick: An act made by intentionally hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the
heel, from the toe to the knee but not including the knee. A kick must move the ball a visible
distance out of the hand, or along the ground.
[/LAWS]
If those two definitions do not prove the absurd nature of such a claim what will? To add "proof" why would you be given points for a "technically illegal" act? The laws even tells you how to do it.
YOu comparison with the hand off is valid. The law's only reference (pre chance) was that it was illegal. No form of exception was ever included in the Laws . But kicking? Come off it.
Neither definition specifically deals witheth throw forward problem. It is an inference.
I am merely pointing out that the way the game is played is not always in accordance with the letter of the law. I do not advocate that we should take a literal approach to such things - quite the opposite.
Marc Wakeham
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Clearly the two are different. THe law allows (if fact, on occasion demands) you to kick the ball. Clearly the law would not demand something illegal. So please stop muddying the water with this claim.
Lets look at the "interupted kick where a player is tackled trying to kick Has he kicked it ? NO has it traveled forward? If yes then it is a knock on. Jut the a player who wit hball in hand is tackled and lose control of the ball and it goes forward. Unless he regathers it is a knock on. Consistent.
You phusically can't kick the ball with out releasing the ball forward.
Youcannot carry out a restart (drop kick) without the ball being dropped to the ground in front of you. That is 100% clear. You are allowed to do it. Your playing with semantics helps no one.
Lets look at the "interupted kick where a player is tackled trying to kick Has he kicked it ? NO has it traveled forward? If yes then it is a knock on. Jut the a player who wit hball in hand is tackled and lose control of the ball and it goes forward. Unless he regathers it is a knock on. Consistent.
You phusically can't kick the ball with out releasing the ball forward.
Youcannot carry out a restart (drop kick) without the ball being dropped to the ground in front of you. That is 100% clear. You are allowed to do it. Your playing with semantics helps no one.
At the time he releases the ball, his action is legal. If an action by the opponent prevents him from completing the kick, that original action suddenly becomes illegal. I think that is silly.
Of course - but that was never my point. I am NOT arguing that releasing the ball forward for a kick should be seen as illegal.
You are again missing my point.
Marc Wakeham
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Your point
is simply wrong. It is not technically illegal. Kicking should be seen for what it is a legal action without the rediculous add-ons you are putting on it.
Back to the thread. A hooker stepping in field IS illegal. That referees apply "material effect" to it is a point that is open to debate. Please don't muddy the waters with pseudo intelectual nonsense about kicking.
OB said:
is simply wrong. It is not technically illegal. Kicking should be seen for what it is a legal action without the rediculous add-ons you are putting on it.
Back to the thread. A hooker stepping in field IS illegal. That referees apply "material effect" to it is a point that is open to debate. Please don't muddy the waters with pseudo intelectual nonsense about kicking.
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I have said many times that the so-called "Laws" of rugby are not anything like statute law and should not be interpreted that way. I think the interrupted kick being treated as a knock-on is an example of this error.
Of course punts and drop kicks are legal. It is a pity the law does not explicitly say the forward release for a kick is an exception, because that would deal with the interrupted kick properly IMHO.
The hooker stepping on the line is probably similar to the hand-off which was technically illegal because you were playing a player without the ball, but was explicitly legalised in 2011 by an addition to Law 7 Mode of Play.
Maybe they will one day get round to dealing with the de facto standard regarding the hooker's feet on the touchline.
Of course punts and drop kicks are legal. It is a pity the law does not explicitly say the forward release for a kick is an exception, because that would deal with the interrupted kick properly IMHO.
The hooker stepping on the line is probably similar to the hand-off which was technically illegal because you were playing a player without the ball, but was explicitly legalised in 2011 by an addition to Law 7 Mode of Play.
Maybe they will one day get round to dealing with the de facto standard regarding the hooker's feet on the touchline.
in this case the laws are perfectly clear, there is no lacuna
[LAWS]18.22 The player throwing in the ball stands on the mark of touch with both feet outside the field of play. The thrower must not step into the field of play until the ball has been thrown. Sanction: Option of lineout or scrum.[/LAWS]
[LAWS]Field of play: The area between the goal lines and the touch lines. Those lines are not part of the field of play.[/LAWS]
so his feet can be on the white line, but must not be on the FoP.
[LAWS]18.22 The player throwing in the ball stands on the mark of touch with both feet outside the field of play. The thrower must not step into the field of play until the ball has been thrown. Sanction: Option of lineout or scrum.[/LAWS]
[LAWS]Field of play: The area between the goal lines and the touch lines. Those lines are not part of the field of play.[/LAWS]
so his feet can be on the white line, but must not be on the FoP.
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Agree.
If a running ball-carrier's foot touches the touchline, he is regarded as having stepped outside the FoP, so why would a player standing with his feet touching the touchline also not be consideerd to be outside the FoP?
[LAWS]Law 6.26.c.i When the ball is thrown in, the assistant referee or touch judge lowers the flag, with the following exceptions:
- When the player throwing in puts any part of either foot in the field of play.
[LAWS]15.11 Once a ruck has formed, no player may handle the ball unless they were able to get their hands on the ball before the ruck formed and stay on their feet.[/LAWS]
Another bit of law widely ignored. We all allow the scrum half to put his hands on the ball while it is still in the ruck.
The game evolves faster than the laws do. As long as everyone agrees, this works. If people get too legalistic (or disagree), it doesn't. Some conventions give rise to controversy.
And the TJ or AR must keep their flag up
6.26
c When the ball is thrown in, the assistant referee or touch judge lowers the flag, with the following exceptions:
i When the player throwing in puts any part of either foot in the field of play.
So any part of the toe over the line, and we keep our flag up.
I know "it does not really matter", but the stud on the paint matters and stops a try.
And the TJ is there and can warn the hooker when they take position illegally. All it takes is a word.
6.26
c When the ball is thrown in, the assistant referee or touch judge lowers the flag, with the following exceptions:
i When the player throwing in puts any part of either foot in the field of play.
So any part of the toe over the line, and we keep our flag up.
I know "it does not really matter", but the stud on the paint matters and stops a try.
And the TJ is there and can warn the hooker when they take position illegally. All it takes is a word.